As the leaves turn and the air grows crisp, we're reminded that change is the only constant, a truth Chloe Benjamin knows all too well. This week on The Bookshop Podcast, join me for a profound journey with the author of The Anatomy of Dreams and The Immortalists as we navigate the intertwining paths of creativity and self-care. Chloe opens up about the alchemy of storytelling sparked in her youth and the vigilant balancing act between the fervor of art and the necessity of wellness, a dance many of us know too well. Her insights provide a map for writers and dreamers to chart a course through the tumultuous waters of a freelance career, steering clear of the siren call of commercialized self-care and wellness.
Venture further into the heart of Chloe's work as we discuss the rich tapestry of The Immortalists. Chloe's dedication to authenticity breathes life into historical narratives, and her exploration of mind-body techniques presents a beacon of hope for those seeking solace from their internal storms. This episode is a testament to the transformative power of literature, allowing us to reflect on the threads of our own lives which mirror the characters we come to cherish.
Completing our literary odyssey, we lift the veil on the often enigmatic world of publishing, offering solace and guidance to emerging writers navigating this labyrinth. Chloe's experience demystifies the journey from penning the first word to holding a published book in hand. Our conversation expands to celebrate the written word's power to heal, inspire, and transport us to realms unknown, with recommendations that will ignite readers' imaginations and perhaps even inspire a few to embrace the meditative quietude that has touched Chloe's life. So, settle in with your favorite feline companion and prepare to be whisked away by one of my favorite contemporary authors as we converse about life, health, and writing on this episode of The Bookshop Podcast.
Chloe Benjamin
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The Immortalists, Chloe Benjamin
#22 â Chloe Benjamin The Sewanee Review
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The Bookshop Podcast
Mandy Jackson-Beverly
Social Media Links
Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly.
00:00:13
Welcome to the Bookshop podcast .
00:00:16
Each week, I present interviews with independent bookshop
00:00:19
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professionals and specialists in subjects dear to my heart the
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To help the show reach more people, please share it with
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friends and family and on social media, and remember to
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subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this
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podcast.
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You're listening to episode 236 .
00:00:46
Chloe Benjamin is the author of the Immortalist, a New York
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Times bestseller, and the Anatomy of Dreams, a Barnes
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Noble.
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Discover great new writers selection, library Reads
00:00:58
favorite and number one next pick.
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The Immortalist was named a best book of 2018 by NPR, the
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Washington Post, entertainment Weekly and others.
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The Anatomy of Dreams received the Edna Ferber Fiction Book
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Award and was long listed for the 2014 Center for Fiction
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First Novel Prize.
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Originally from San Francisco, california, chloe is a graduate
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of Vasa College and the MFA in Fiction at the University of
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Wisconsin.
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Her work has been translated into over 30 languages.
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She lives with her husband and two Maine Coon cats in Madison,
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wisconsin, where she is at work on a third novel.
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Hi, chloe, and welcome to the show.
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I'm so happy to have you here.
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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
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I've long admired it, so I'm thrilled to be here.
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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.
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I appreciate that I have so many questions, but I do want to
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begin with learning about you, and especially your first memory
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of storytelling.
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Speaker 2: I love that question.
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I'm from San Francisco, california, where I currently am
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right now doing a kind of family visit, writing residency,
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although I live in Wisconsin and have for about 13 years
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since I moved there to do an MFA in fiction.
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I grew up just really enraptured with all forms of the
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arts.
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My mom is a stage actor, my dad is a lawyer and I think the
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combination of the arts and then the kind of argumentative
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analysis that I experienced with my dad led to this interest in
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creating stories where you know there's there's a huge element
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of imagination but there's also a bit of a litigation involved
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because you want to convince someone of this world.
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My parents divorced when I was young and thereafter I had kind
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of a modern family.
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My mom met a woman named Molly and they were together for all
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of my childhood and into my college years.
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I have two younger brothers and then my dad remarried my
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stepmother Ellen.
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At my dad's house we practiced Judaism.
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At my mom's house we practiced Christianity.
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So I think there was just kind of a melting pot of different
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influences at that time.
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I was.
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I was curious about spirituality.
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Like I said, I was in love with the arts and I did a number of
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different forms.
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I grew up as a ballet dancer and I also did acting, and both
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of those things eventually fell by the wayside as I decided to
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focus on writing.
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Speaker 1: And do you have a memory of your first piece of
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writing?
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Speaker 2: So it's interesting I'm currently working on a book
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in which I'm writing a child character and I don't have
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children, and so I wanted to find anecdotes that felt
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authentic, but I didn't want to steal them from friends children
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, so I thought I should rip myself off, and so my mom had a
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baby book that she made and kept , somewhat terrifyingly, until I
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was 15.
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This is, like you can tell, I was the oldest child, because I
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don't think that my brother's got this treatment, but I've
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been reading through that and so this is a long way of saying
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that I was shocked by how early that showed up.
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I mean, from, I think, two, three years old, I was creating
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little books.
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I was an incredibly verbal little kid.
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My mom noted that I would sort of work from sun up to sun down
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on these creative projects as a toddler, which is kind of
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hilarious and will connect to what we talk about later as far
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as work life balance, because clearly I struggled with that,
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you know, even as a very small child.
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But one really strong writing related memory that stands out,
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as in fourth grade we had an assignment to write a story and
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mind wound up being so long that it had to be specially bound
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with string because it couldn't be stapled, and so we whole
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punched it, and my teacher that year was a man named Wally
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Gutierrez, fourth grade at Alamo School in San Francisco, and
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I've never been able to find him , and so if anybody knows Wally
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who, who used to teach at Alamo, please let me know.
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I think that was his support of that moment really made me feel
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like I was a writer and I've always remembered it.
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Speaker 1: It's such a gift to be able to think back throughout
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our life and remember the people who have helped us, who
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have supported us, and it's also great when we get to do that
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for someone else too.
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I'd like to talk about wellness , because I feel that is a word
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companies use to entice new employees, when often, in
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reality, it means a gym membership or something similar.
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However, wellness is about mental health as much as
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physical health.
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Two aspects are imperative to one's overall health.
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Many of us who work freelance tend to push ourselves harder,
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often to the brink of exhaustion .
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Can you share your experience regarding work-life balance?
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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I completely agree with you about
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the way that wellness has been absorbed by capitalism and it's
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now a product, from green smoothies to gym memberships to
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all kinds of other things that may I mean.
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A gym membership is important to many people's physical and
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mental health, including mine, but I do think that maybe,
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culturally, we've lost a sense of the fact that this is within
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us and that you don't have to spend any money in order to try
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to bring more balance into your life.
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As far as my experience, I think it's most helpful to put
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it in the context of my career.
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When I was in my MFA program at the University of Wisconsin, I
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finished a manuscript that I had started several years earlier
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in college, and that manuscript got me an agent who then sent it
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out to about 20 New York City publishers and everyone said no.
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And I mentioned this first of all because I think so many
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writers don't know just how much rejection is involved in the
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industry, even for those of us who eventually become published,
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but also because it feeds into the drive that I had with my
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next two books.
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So my first novel that was published I wrote after that
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initial submission.
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That novel was called the Anatomy of Dreams, and it was
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what we call in the industry a quieter publication, meaning it
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didn't reach a super wide audience, it didn't sell a ton
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of copies.
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So while I'm proud of what that book achieved and grateful for
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it, my agent and I knew that it would be more challenging to
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sell a second book, because the first thing that publishers tend
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to do is to look at profit and loss statements for your
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previous book.
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So the book that I was working on next was called the
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Immortalist and I felt really deeply that this was a book that
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I was born to write.
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My level of attachment to it was different and I felt also
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very deeply that the quality was a step above anything that I
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had done before.
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And my agent agreed, but she was concerned about this, the
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previous book and the sales issue.
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But when we sent it out, this kind of miraculous dream come
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true situation happened.
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There was an auction and it landed with a publisher that has
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been just phenomenal and an editor that I adore.
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I also had a wonderful editor, I should say, for my first book,
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but for this second one, a different house was a better fit
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.
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So all of this sets up in me this really strong desire for
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this book, this second book, to do well commercially and
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critically, because it sort of felt like I've been given a big
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chance.
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The publisher made the Immortalist the lead title.
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They were putting a lot into it and because I hadn't had the
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big, splashy debut, it felt incredibly important for this
00:09:22
one to be quote unquote successful by you know, by
00:09:26
whatever metric you can think of , really, and the wonderful
00:09:33
thing was that it was.
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But the unexpected downside is that pushing myself relentlessly
00:09:40
over multiple years of publicity and touring led to a
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worsening of migraines that I had had for years but which had
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never been as bad as they became during the touring process for
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Immortalist.
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And eventually I was in daily chronic pain and truly disabled.
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I mean, I couldn't even work on the computer.
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Anything and everything triggered migraines, from
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certain kinds of lighting to sound, I would say stress was
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the biggest one.
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And so, finding myself in this rock bottom, I had to ask how
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did I get here and why did I put the success of my work over the
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health of my body and mind, and that began a multi year healing
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process.
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It's been maybe five plus years now of learning how to find
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balance in my life, learning to give myself permission to live
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and not just use everything for my work.
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Learning how to listen to my body, trust my body, facilitate
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my body in trusting me, because I had abandoned it, and I mean
00:11:00
that.
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There's so much more than I know we have the time for today,
00:11:05
but I pursued a number of different therapies, from vision
00:11:10
therapy to help me get back on screens to EMDR.
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I recognize that not all writers or not all people have
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the privilege of being able to pursue these things, and I'm
00:11:23
very lucky that I did so.
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From where I am now, I try to be open about this so that I can
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encourage artists to find ways of working that are mentally and
00:11:34
physically sustainable, whatever that may look like, so
00:11:38
that other people can learn from my story and maybe not get to
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the point that I did.
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Speaker 1: Something you said really struck me, and it was
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about, I think, something like letting your mind and your body
00:11:50
trust you again.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I think my mind had to learn to trust my body
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and my body had to learn to trust my mind.
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So I feel like for many years I was really sort of living from
00:12:06
the neck up and ignoring what was below.
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But of course the mind and the body are so connected.
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I took a class called Mindfulness-Based Stress
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Reduction at some point in this journey, which folks may be able
00:12:19
to find through their health care organization.
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That's where I found mine and it was actually initially
00:12:24
designed for chronic pain but is now available to anyone for the
00:12:29
purpose of bringing meditation into their lives.
00:12:32
And it's pretty incredible how we take for granted that, say,
00:12:38
if we're thinking about delicious food, our mouths will
00:12:41
water, or if we're anxious, our stomachs will crunch up, but it
00:12:48
still feels like a leap to say.
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Stress causes physical pain or you know, the impact of our
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Productivity, obsessed culture takes a toll in these very
00:13:01
concrete ways in the body.
00:13:03
So learning how to connect and respect the relationship between
00:13:08
the two has been really key for me.
00:13:10
Do you still meditate?
00:13:12
I do, yes, yeah, I mean I I've sort of built a Toolbox over
00:13:18
these many years that have helped and that's a huge thing
00:13:24
for me.
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I mean just the eye, the very idea of Not doing, of just being
00:13:29
.
00:13:29
I think that's really hard for me as an artist, and I'm sure
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there are others who feel the same way, because, as you're
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saying, it takes so much of you and there's not so much of a
00:13:40
Work-life divide in the way that there might be for a career
00:13:44
that isn't born of Passion in the way that the arts can be.
00:13:50
You know, writing is what I love to do, it's what I want to do.
00:13:54
I mean, when I'm on vacation I want to write.
00:13:56
One of the things that I get excited about is writing in
00:13:59
different locations, and so, you know, it wasn't simply that I
00:14:02
was pushing working myself to the bone because I felt like I
00:14:06
should, and so that gray area can be very confusing.
00:14:10
But I do think that I previously saw myself and my
00:14:15
life and my body in my mind, as you know, a vessel for the
00:14:19
creation of art, rather than believing that I, that it was
00:14:24
also valuable for me to experience, without Looking to
00:14:29
that experience from us with a viewpoint of extraction.
00:14:33
And I I do think that the reason I had that was in in part
00:14:37
because I have grown up in this culture.
00:14:39
You know, american culture is really capitalistic and
00:14:44
individualistic, and so unlearning some of that isn't
00:14:48
easy.
00:14:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's difficult, and for many creatives I know,
00:14:52
I think, perfectionism is a rampant in their psyche, and
00:14:56
patience is difficult too, because we spend years writing a
00:15:00
book, creating a piece of art, writing a piece of music, and
00:15:05
then we have to wait for it to be accepted, published, and
00:15:11
that's difficult.
00:15:11
So has what you've learned help you emerge with a different
00:15:16
outlook on life?
00:15:18
Speaker 2: It has, absolutely.
00:15:19
I mean, I marvel at how If this hadn't happened, you know as
00:15:26
awful as it was, and truly there were Year not just days or
00:15:30
months, but years when I did not know if I would ever be able to
00:15:34
live Something close to a normal life.
00:15:37
It's changed me completely because they couldn't be prized
00:15:40
apart.
00:15:41
You know, just like the mind and the body, and how connected
00:15:45
they are.
00:15:45
If my work life was going to change, then my inner life and
00:15:50
my Experiential life had to change too.
00:15:52
Because again, it's you know, as an artist you're, you're
00:15:56
pulling of yourself, you're making of yourself.
00:15:58
It's not as simple as saying, okay, at five o'clock I'm not
00:16:02
going to think about this anymore, because everything that
00:16:04
you're taking in, you know, might find its way into a book,
00:16:09
you know, no matter how conscious you are at the time.
00:16:12
So I do try to instill boundaries by saying you're
00:16:15
going to bed now, we're not thinking about the book, you've
00:16:17
got to drop it, you got to save it for tomorrow.
00:16:19
But at the same time, I think the deeper work of finding
00:16:25
balance and release and moving away from Perfectionism
00:16:31
controlling my life had to do with, like you have to go from
00:16:35
the bottom up.
00:16:36
It has to encompass the entire person.
00:16:41
Speaker 1: Thankfully, you had that sense of knowing deep down
00:16:45
inside that something had to change and no doubt you had a
00:16:49
wonderful support system of family and friends around you.
00:16:52
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think what was very
00:16:56
scary about it is that I had pursued all kinds of Western
00:17:01
neurological things, that that simply didn't help, and so
00:17:05
Everyone in my life was really at a loss, as was I, you know as
00:17:10
to what would, what would help me turn the corner.
00:17:12
I'm so grateful to my husband, who went through really, really
00:17:17
Intense years.
00:17:18
You know, it was like the highest highs and the lowest
00:17:21
lows, because my dream, my dream , was coming through, coming
00:17:24
true professionally.
00:17:25
But in my personal life things were so difficult.
00:17:28
You know, my parents were wonderful, I have wonderful
00:17:32
friends, but for anyone listening and I'll just say, as
00:17:36
an aside to you may be feel free to cut this if this is not, you
00:17:39
know, relevant, but to anyone listening who has pain and is
00:17:44
curious about the role of the mind, what really Changed my
00:17:49
life most drastically was finding a treatment method that
00:17:54
focused on the role of the brain in Creating and maintaining
00:17:58
chronic pain, and what I found was something called Lynn health
00:18:01
lin.
00:18:02
It's mediated through an app.
00:18:06
You meet weekly with a coach who guides you through the
00:18:09
methodology.
00:18:10
There's a lot of pain education involved, but essentially the
00:18:14
the thesis is that fear keeps your brain and body in a sense
00:18:20
of high alert, and this creates and maintains chronic pain.
00:18:23
And so by teaching the brain Safety, you can downgrade the
00:18:28
amount of pain that you have, and I've been able to reverse
00:18:32
Pretty much all of my triggers.
00:18:34
I live in a way I never knew that I could again and you know
00:18:38
this is a developing research.
00:18:41
But at the same time, when I brought it to my neurologist,
00:18:43
she said this is where pain treatment is going and that was
00:18:46
really validating.
00:18:47
But it took me a long, long time to find something that
00:18:51
would actually work for me.
00:18:52
Speaker 1: I think when we go through a traumatic health event
00:18:55
getting through it is one thing , the recovery is another
00:19:00
there's that sense of am I ever going to be able to do the
00:19:03
things I did hiking, swimming, you know, working out how do I
00:19:09
have to rethink my life?
00:19:10
Am I going to die?
00:19:12
All these things come up and I can only speak the experience
00:19:16
I've had.
00:19:16
But I think there's a profound sense of gratitude and with that
00:19:23
sense of gratitude comes kind of an evolution in your own
00:19:28
Mindset that things have to change.
00:19:31
And for me it was definitely Meditation.
00:19:34
I will not go a day without it.
00:19:35
For me it's just like having a cup of tea or coffee.
00:19:38
It's just part of my daily routine.
00:19:43
Okay, let's get back to the immortalists.
00:19:44
The first time I read this book I appreciated the research you
00:19:49
put into the story, especially regarding San Francisco in the
00:19:53
80s and the AIDS crisis.
00:19:55
Simon's story in the immortalists is authentic in the
00:19:59
sense of the culture, location and political aspects, from gay
00:20:04
clubs and bathhouses to Diane Feinstein announcing the deaths
00:20:08
of Mayor Moscone and Supervisor Harvey milk.
00:20:11
Now, you're originally from San Francisco and as I read the
00:20:15
book it felt like the city, her people and her history Harbor a
00:20:20
very large piece of your heart.
00:20:21
Oh my gosh.
00:20:22
Speaker 2: Yes, I.
00:20:23
Part of the reason I do these long visits home I'm actually
00:20:27
currently here for a month is because I long for it so much
00:20:31
and it makes most sense for my husband and I to live in
00:20:34
Wisconsin.
00:20:34
He works in sustainability at the University, but this is sort
00:20:39
of our our way of enabling me to get that fix and Reconnect
00:20:46
with a place that is so Primally important to me.
00:20:49
Like I said, I was born and raised here and I Loved being
00:20:55
able to bring in certain certain things that had a relationship
00:20:59
to my own life.
00:21:00
For instance, I very rarely pull anything Whole sale from my
00:21:05
life and put it into a book, but the ballet school that Simon
00:21:09
attends in the Castro is Entirely the ballet school that
00:21:13
I attended for years and years, and the ballet master there,
00:21:17
golly, is Very obvious to anybody who, you know, knew him
00:21:22
very obviously, based on my teacher Zori.
00:21:27
So that was a.
00:21:28
That was a pleasure.
00:21:29
You know just even little things like the like, the
00:21:33
culture of each neighborhood or the geography.
00:21:36
You know, knowing my way around San Francisco was really
00:21:40
helpful because there's so much research that's involved when
00:21:43
you're writing about a place that you don't know intimately.
00:21:46
That said, I was not alive during the Years of the AIDS
00:21:52
crisis in which the book is set, and so I knew it was hugely
00:21:55
important for me to do Do diligence via research, so that
00:21:59
I could write about that time with integrity and respect for
00:22:04
what people experienced.
00:22:06
So that section in particular was definitely a marriage of
00:22:11
things that I may have experienced or Ways in which I
00:22:16
felt connected to the city and its communities, even though I
00:22:21
am a straight woman.
00:22:22
As I mentioned, my mom and her partner, molly, were a gay
00:22:27
couple, and so I was raised by a lot of amazing LGBTQ people in
00:22:34
our circle of family friends, so I had certain touch points or
00:22:39
things that I felt strongly about but again really felt it
00:22:43
was important for me to do Research so that I wasn't
00:22:47
relying on on my experience when it didn't fit the elements of
00:22:52
that piece.
00:22:53
Speaker 1: Simon's story is heartbreaking, but I encourage
00:22:57
people to read the immortalists.
00:22:58
We cannot forget what happened with the AIDS crisis.
00:23:03
It was devastating.
00:23:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely devastating.
00:23:08
Speaker 1: Chloe.
00:23:08
I would love to hear your publishing story, from your
00:23:11
first finished manuscript to finding an agent and Landing a
00:23:15
publishing deal.
00:23:15
I think you mentioned there was one book you had written before
00:23:19
, the anatomy of dreams.
00:23:21
Is that right?
00:23:22
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and I have dreams followed the manuscript
00:23:25
that I finished in my MFA and that's the one that I submitted
00:23:28
to agents and that connected me with my agent.
00:23:32
But we were unable to sell it and that book lives in an
00:23:37
imaginary drawer now, as we say, and it Doesn't need to come
00:23:43
back.
00:23:43
I don't think I would try to publish it.
00:23:45
I actually agree with the feedback we received, which was
00:23:49
like lovely sentences but where's the story?
00:23:52
And I think I came from this literary fiction model that is
00:23:57
more common in MFA's than not, which prizes subtlety and you
00:24:04
know pros and character over plot.
00:24:05
But what I realized when I got all of that feedback was there
00:24:09
are authors who do a beautiful job at that kind of very
00:24:12
literary novel, but I don't think I'm one of them and I
00:24:16
actually love story, like I love reading books that have equally
00:24:21
strong stories as character development and prose.
00:24:26
So when I gave myself permission to write a book that
00:24:30
didn't shy away from a more plot , pyrotechnics or Emotion even,
00:24:37
I mean I think again, in that literary fiction model there's
00:24:41
there's sort of this, the subtlety that goes all the way
00:24:44
to the level of Emotional display as well.
00:24:48
There will often be a kind of quiet epiphany that a character
00:24:51
has and again, I nothing against that approach.
00:24:55
I have so many books and short stories I love that are working
00:25:00
within that.
00:25:00
But for me I think my work improved vastly when I said let
00:25:08
me just write up the kind of book that I would want to read
00:25:11
and not be worried about whether it's perceived as too dramatic.
00:25:16
So that led me to Anatomy of Dreams, which followed a trio of
00:25:20
dream researchers who were looking into lucid dreaming, and
00:25:26
that book has kind of a speculative element because of
00:25:30
dream research and I invented the kind of research that
00:25:33
they're doing.
00:25:33
It doesn't exist in, at least it didn't at the time, but that
00:25:39
said, it could have existed.
00:25:42
So it didn't veer into science fiction or fantasy or anything
00:25:47
like that.
00:25:48
Immortalists also has a slightly speculative element.
00:25:52
The immortalist follows four siblings growing up on the Lower
00:25:56
East Side of New York in the 60s.
00:25:58
They hear of a woman who claims to be able to tell anyone their
00:26:01
date of death and they go to see her and receive these
00:26:04
prophecies.
00:26:05
The book then follows each of them over the course of their
00:26:08
lives.
00:26:08
So in that book as well there was this question of is this a
00:26:14
power that someone can have.
00:26:15
But the book that I'm working on now kind of goes head over
00:26:20
heels more into that literary genre crossover space.
00:26:24
So I think in all of my work I'm interested in what feels
00:26:30
like magic, whether that is truly something magical or
00:26:36
whether we just label magic as what we don't know.
00:26:38
And I think that makes me similarly drawn to both
00:26:43
spirituality and science, because I think spirituality is
00:26:48
a way of holding space for mystery, and science is the
00:26:54
pursuit of knowledge when it comes to mystery, and so that
00:26:59
tension between knowing and not knowing and mundanity and magic
00:27:05
is something that I seem to return to.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: And I for one I'm glad you do, because I love your
00:27:09
stories.
00:27:10
Perhaps for some people, anything to do with spirituality
00:27:13
or magic or the paranormal is easy to write off as imagination
00:27:20
if you haven't experienced something in that realm.
00:27:24
But I guess some people could say well, that's kind of how I
00:27:28
feel about meditating.
00:27:29
However, the exciting thing about meditation is that now we
00:27:33
have a lot of scientific evidence in the form of MRIs,
00:27:39
where one can see changes happening in the brain.
00:27:42
I probably sound like I'm thinking out loud, which maybe I
00:27:45
am.
00:27:46
Speaker 2: But I think you're right, and I think that relates
00:27:50
to the connection between mind and body as well.
00:27:52
I think there are things that we feel intuitively or that
00:27:56
non-Western cultures have known for a very long time, among
00:28:00
others, that Western science is just starting to be able to
00:28:05
understand, whether that's the role that the brain plays in
00:28:10
pain, or whether that's what happens in our minds and bodies
00:28:15
while we're meditating.
00:28:16
So I know exactly what you mean .
00:28:19
Speaker 1: Well putting our foot back into the world of reality.
00:28:21
Can you tell us about the consulting services you offer
00:28:25
and what prompted you to take this on?
00:28:27
Speaker 2: I offer consulting services to writers.
00:28:30
I don't read or edit manuscripts, but I do offer
00:28:34
information and guidance about all aspects of the publishing
00:28:38
process.
00:28:38
So I've worked with people who love to write and just want to
00:28:42
talk about how can I fit writing into my life, all the way to
00:28:46
people who are queering agents or people who are publishing
00:28:50
books.
00:28:50
I love being able to talk with people in all stages of the
00:28:55
process and to offer mentorship.
00:28:58
I came to this because I noticed that in my own journey
00:29:03
it really wasn't until I had published two books that I felt
00:29:06
like I understood the lay of the land when it came to publishing
00:29:08
.
00:29:08
And that's even though I went to an MFA program where you
00:29:12
would think you'd receive more education about the industry
00:29:15
side of things.
00:29:16
But I think MFA's are really focused on craft and that can be
00:29:20
a great thing.
00:29:21
For someone like me who is kind of ambitious and
00:29:25
perfectionistic already, it was probably a good thing that that
00:29:29
time was really preserved for the writing itself.
00:29:33
But the downside is that you really learn as you go along,
00:29:38
and I suppose that can be true in any field.
00:29:40
But I do think that a lot of up and coming writers feel that
00:29:44
publishing is sort of a fortress or obscured in mystery, and
00:29:53
there's so little standardization in the arts that
00:29:56
, for instance, sometimes my writer friends and I will say,
00:30:01
if we are really close we'll talk about what we're paid,
00:30:04
because none of that is public.
00:30:06
You can't publicly find out how much a book has sold.
00:30:08
You need to be in the industry, for instance an agent or an
00:30:13
editor, to access the book scan that gives you those numbers.
00:30:15
So there's a lot that is sort of hidden behind the curtain and
00:30:21
I hope to offer some of that to writers as well as do the kind
00:30:26
of work we've been talking about and encouraging folks to find
00:30:30
ways of working that help them to stay healthy while they're
00:30:36
pursuing the arts.
00:30:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is interesting because I've heard
00:30:40
it from so many authors who have completed MFA's or MAs in
00:30:45
creative writing that unless you have a professor who has a
00:30:50
publishing deal, who's prepared to kind of take you under their
00:30:53
wing a little and guide you towards the whole process of
00:30:57
publishing, you're kind of left on your own.
00:30:59
So you leave this MA or a PhD not having any idea about the
00:31:04
publishing process and as I published my own books, I can
00:31:08
tell you there are so many platforms out there and people
00:31:12
who are ready to rip you off about self-publishing.
00:31:15
It is alarming and shameful.
00:31:18
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
00:31:19
I think that there are great reasons to do either paths, but
00:31:25
often people don't know just how expensive not just in terms of
00:31:29
money but in terms of time and energy it can be.
00:31:32
To self-publish and that can still be a good option, but I
00:31:37
think having that information going into it is important?
00:31:41
Speaker 1: Yes for sure.
00:31:42
It's going to save you a lot of money and heartache.
00:31:45
I was reading some of the essays you've written and there
00:31:49
was one that stood out.
00:31:50
It's a piece that you wrote for the Sawani review and a phrase
00:31:54
stuck with me, quote Dr Kay once told me that OCD is often
00:31:59
described as an allergy to uncertainty.
00:32:02
You explained underlying the specific fear that dominated my
00:32:07
OCD was a more elemental one a fear of loss of the
00:32:11
vulnerability of the body, of the fact that so much of human
00:32:15
being is beyond our control end.
00:32:17
Quote has this understanding helped you gain control of your
00:32:21
OCD?
00:32:21
This question really interests me because I also suffer from
00:32:26
OCD.
00:32:27
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
00:32:27
Yeah Well, I was really tortured by OCD for most of my
00:32:34
life.
00:32:34
I talk in that essay about how it was only in writing various
00:32:39
section of the immortalists, the last sibling, who does have OCD
00:32:44
that I realized I probably have this and I probably need to
00:32:49
deal with it because I can't keep enduring the way that it is
00:32:53
controlled my life.
00:32:54
And so when I was I think it was that year, maybe I was 30
00:33:01
the year that it came out and for the first time I went and
00:33:07
saw an OCD specialist and he confirmed that I fit the profile
00:33:11
exactly and I remember crying in the parking lot because it
00:33:15
was such a relief, you know, to know what it was.
00:33:19
And the treatment of choice behavior relief for OCD, which
00:33:23
you probably know, is something called exposure therapy and the
00:33:26
idea is that continuing to avoid an object of fear let's say for
00:33:33
OCD that has to do with contamination reinforces the
00:33:36
brain's belief that it's dangerous, and so you can't
00:33:40
eradicate the feared stimulus let's say it's dirt or germs.
00:33:44
You can't eradicate that from the world but paradoxically,
00:33:49
when you put yourself in contact with it, more your brain
00:33:52
actually learns oh, this is actually okay.
00:33:56
And so you have to do it slowly and there's a whole process
00:34:00
that a professional can walk you through.
00:34:02
But I did a very slow purposeful exposure therapy for
00:34:08
about a year and I never thought that I could escape the
00:34:13
particular fear that just had gripped me at that point for
00:34:18
almost 20 years.
00:34:19
And now I rarely think about it .
00:34:23
And it was only because I did that that I believed that this
00:34:30
brain-based treatment for pain could work, because actually, to
00:34:34
loop back to what I was saying before about limb health,
00:34:37
exposures are one of the treatment elements of that
00:34:42
approach.
00:34:42
So by slowly exposing yourself, say to lights or to sound, your
00:34:49
brain realizes oh, I think this is actually okay, I don't have
00:34:53
to create a migraine.
00:34:54
And I don't think I would have even believed it was possible if
00:34:57
I hadn't seen that this was utterly transformative when it
00:35:02
came to my OCD.
00:35:03
And so, discovering that that same gripping desire for control
00:35:10
, hatred of negative possibility and simply the unknown to which
00:35:17
I ascribed negative possibility , even though I now see the
00:35:20
unknown as a safe space those things all drove my OCD and my
00:35:25
migraines.
00:35:25
And so, to finally answer your question, I think what helped me
00:35:30
to cope with the uncertainty of life and gain better control of
00:35:35
those things was ironically releasing a lot of control,
00:35:40
because I never had it anyway and it was only causing me
00:35:44
literal and figurative pain.
00:35:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, Gosh, so much great information in what you've
00:35:51
just said.
00:35:51
I think you and I need to sit down over coffee or lunch and
00:35:54
chat about this.
00:35:55
I'm sure I will learn a lot from your experience.
00:35:58
Okay, let's talk about books, my favorite subject.
00:36:01
What are you currently reading?
00:36:03
Speaker 2: Ooh, right now I'm looking around.
00:36:06
Right now I'm reading the second book in a series, the
00:36:12
first of which is called Vita Nostra.
00:36:14
It's an incredible book theories written by Ukrainian
00:36:19
authors, translated into English by a fantastic translator, and
00:36:24
it has to do with a Russian set magic school.
00:36:29
So we've talked a bit about magic and how much I love those
00:36:33
stories, but it is utterly how do I put this?
00:36:38
As you read this book, you don't know what is actually being
00:36:41
taught at this school.
00:36:43
The understanding of the methodology that is being taught
00:36:49
comes over you slowly and culminates at the end, and it is
00:36:53
one of the most worthy reveals that I've read, because you're
00:36:59
waiting and waiting, and waiting , and I don't even want to spoil
00:37:05
it for anyone who's listening, but I will say that it's a
00:37:10
metaphysical system that imagines the world as a text,
00:37:14
and so it's incredible.
00:37:16
I mean, it's the kind of book I love to read because it's
00:37:19
atmospheric, there's plenty of story, but it's also firing on
00:37:24
those intellectual levels and it's just a delight.
00:37:27
So, yeah, the second book is called Assassin of Reality.
00:37:30
The first book is called Vita Nostra.
00:37:31
I'm reading that right now.
00:37:33
I'm also reading Breeding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmer
00:37:39
and a phenomenal, incredible book that I think should be
00:37:43
required reading for every human on earth, or required reading
00:37:47
for seniors in high school.
00:37:49
Yeah, yeah, or at least college, absolutely yeah Do you have the
00:37:54
paperback or hardcover?
00:37:56
Speaker 1: I know I have the paperback.
00:37:58
Oh my goodness, I have the hardcover and it is just
00:38:02
glorious to hold.
00:38:03
It is so beautiful.
00:38:05
So even before you get into that beautiful, rich prose, the
00:38:12
book itself is just gorgeous to hold.
00:38:14
It really is a treasure.
00:38:16
Oh, I'm sad I don't have it Now .
00:38:18
A book that has come up again and again recently in interviews
00:38:21
is one of my favorite books the Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell.
00:38:26
Speaker 2: Oh, love the Sparrow.
00:38:28
Okay, you are going to love Vita Nostra Because the Sparrow
00:38:33
I see I'll email it to you.
00:38:36
The Sparrow I see is very much in line with this kind of book
00:38:40
that I love, which is both you know has a wonderful literary
00:38:44
qualities, but also science-fictional or
00:38:47
fantasy-based ones, but also a lot of brain-y, like food for
00:38:51
the brain.
00:38:51
So I love the Sparrow Devastating.
00:38:55
You've already read it?
00:38:56
It sounds like.
00:38:57
Speaker 1: Yes, I have, but I need to read the second book,
00:39:00
which is Children of God.
00:39:02
Chloe, I just love chatting with you.
00:39:04
I could chat with you for hours , not only about books and
00:39:08
writing, but health and wellness .
00:39:11
I have great admiration for you as a writer and also as a
00:39:15
health advocate.
00:39:16
Can you imagine what a wonderful world it would be if
00:39:19
we all meditated?
00:39:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's so many ways in which things
00:39:25
could change if that were the case.
00:39:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, that's for sure, and next time we have to
00:39:31
talk about cats.
00:39:32
We haven't even touched the subject of kitty cats oh my
00:39:36
goodness.
00:39:37
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm always down for a cat conversation.
00:39:40
Speaker 1: Make sure you bring photos, and I'll bring photos of
00:39:42
my kitty cats too when we see each other in person at the
00:39:46
Lunch with an Author Literary series at Ellen Canto in Santa
00:39:50
Barbara, California, on Tuesday March 5th, and I will make sure
00:39:54
to put the links to sign up for this event in the show notes.
00:39:58
To make your reservation, call area code 805-845-5800 and ask
00:40:05
to speak to the concierge to make your booking, or you can
00:40:08
also email conciergeele at belmondcom.
00:40:13
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so looking forward to that.
00:40:15
And, mandy, thank you for being such a wonderful voice and
00:40:19
community member in the literary world.
00:40:21
The way that you bring attention to other authors, but
00:40:25
also bookstores, is just so wonderful.
00:40:28
We need people like you, and I know that you're also a writer
00:40:32
yourself, so you have just so many hats that you wear and you
00:40:35
give so much to this community of people.
00:40:38
So thank you for the work that you do.
00:40:41
Speaker 1: You've been listening to my conversation with Chloe
00:40:44
Benjamin, author of the Immortalist and the Anatomy of
00:40:47
Dreams.
00:40:48
To find out more about the Bookshop podcast, go to
00:40:52
thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a
00:40:56
review wherever you listen to the show.
00:40:58
You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram
00:41:04
and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop podcast.
00:41:07
If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to
00:41:11
suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via
00:41:14
the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom.
00:41:17
The Bookshop podcast is written and produced by me, mandy
00:41:22
Jackson Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly,
00:41:25
executive assistant to Mandy, adrienne Otterhan and graphic
00:41:29
design by Francis Ferrara.
00:41:31
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.