In this episode, I chat with one of my favorite authors, TJ Klune, about his much-awaited sequel to The House In The Cerulian Sea, titled Somewhere Beyond The Sea. TJ discusses the characters in the story, how he refills his creative cup, and how he uses his platform to speak about the rights of the LGBTQ+ community.
In Somewhere Beyond The Sea, T.J. Klune sheds light on what it's like to parent children who don't fit into societal norms and what it's like to be a child who is a little different. This segment is a profound discussion on empathy, understanding, and the fierce protective instincts of parents, all while touching on the broader struggles faced by the LGBTQ+ community. The evolving relationship between Arthur and Linus and their children in Somewhere Beyond The Sea is a testament to love and acceptance in a world that often fails to embrace diversity.
The fight for LGBTQ+ rights is far from over, and T.J. Klune is using his platform to make a difference. We talk about the political and social challenges the trans community faces and the interconnectedness of transphobia and misogyny. T.J. reflects on the importance of friendship, acceptance, and the role of writing in processing complex emotions. This episode is an inspiring blend of personal anecdotes, creative insights, and a call to action for positive change, reminding us of storytelling's transformative power.
Somewhere Beyond The Sea, TJ Klune
Grief is the Thing With Feathers, Max Porter
You Like It Darker: Stories, Stephen King
For listeners in Australia, consider purchasing your books from yourbookstore.io
The Bookshop Podcast
Mandy Jackson-Beverly
Social Media Links
Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
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bibliophile.
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Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast .
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Each week, I present interviews with authors, independent
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bookshop owners and booksellers from around the globe and
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publishing professionals.
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To help the show reach more people, please share episodes
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with friends and family and on social media, and remember to
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subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this
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podcast.
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You're listening to episode 267 .
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Tj Klune is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling Lambda
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Literary Award winning author of the House in the Cerulean Sea
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, the Extraordinaries and more.
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Being queer himself, klune believes it's important now more
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than ever, to have accurate, positive queer representation in
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stories.
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Hi, tj, and welcome back to the show.
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Thank you so much for having me back.
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I appreciate it.
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Oh, it's my pleasure and I love Somewhere Beyond the Sea, the
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sequel to the House in the Cerulean Sea.
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You've done it again.
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It's a beautiful, beautiful book.
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The last time we spoke, you had just published In the Lives of
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Puppets.
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Since then, you've released Wolfsong, Ravensong, and on
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September 10th, Somewhere Beyond the Sea is set to publish and
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in February of 2025, the Bones Beneath my Skin will be
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published.
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Speaker 2: My question is how are you feeling?
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I'm good.
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I'm good.
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There are days when I'm like, how am I still standing?
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How am I doing this?
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But at the same time, this is everything I've wanted to do
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ever since I was a kid.
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This is the only really thing that I wanted to do.
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That has stuck with me over the years.
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So the fact that I'm here, the fact that I'm doing this now, is
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I'm the luckiest person in the world to do what I do.
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I'm so incredibly privileged to be able to tell the stories
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that I want to tell and have them come out.
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And yeah, I got to correct you a little, because there was
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another book in there called Heart Song.
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That came out, too, just a few weeks ago, and then the sequel,
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the final book in that series, comes out in July.
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Oh my goodness that's crazy.
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And today.
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Today was the release of a free short story called Reduce,
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reuse, recycle.
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That's set in the same universe as In the Lives of Puppets.
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So, hooray, it's a publication day already, kind of.
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So yeah, that's that's been.
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It's been wonderful, it's been wonderful, but I could use a nap
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.
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Speaker 1: Well, how do you look after yourself?
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How do you refill that creative cup?
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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So the last time we spoke I was living in Virginia and I had
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been there for 10 years on the East Coast and it was killing my
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soul it was.
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It was just too much for me to handle.
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East Coast life is very different than what I'm normally
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used to, and so I told myself some years ago that by the time
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I turned 40, I wanted to be somewhere else.
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And then 40 came and went and I was still in Virginia.
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So last year last summer in fact I decided I need to get out
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, I need to leave this place and go somewhere where I feel like
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I am at home.
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So I got a realtor in August, bought a house in September,
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sold my house later that month and then packed up my entire
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life in October and moved to a tiny little town in Washington
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State.
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Across the country, I took my dog, my cat, and drove 2
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miles from one end of the country to the other, to my tiny
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little.
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Now I live in a cabin in the woods on 10 acres outside of a
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tiny little town that is best known for their Christmas
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celebration.
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That goes on for five months every single year, and so I have
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been able to be outside all the time outside.
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That is how I recharge.
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I have been exploring my new home going in the woods.
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I mean, there's days when me and my dog are out in the woods
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for hours and that is just the best thing in the world for me.
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That's how I recharge, that's how I feel better.
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You know, they say that it takes a certain amount of time
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for a new house to feel like home.
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It felt like home the first day I got here and it has only
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grown ever since.
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So I am very, very happy to have made that big move for
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myself to find a place where I just feel happy, I can breathe
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again.
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Speaker 1: And I'm happy for you .
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Nature is definitely a good tonic.
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You are in a beautiful part of the world.
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How are you finding the winters ?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I live in Leavenworth and the winter here
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it was.
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It was, quote unquote, mild this year, and mild to them is
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eight feet of snow in like a month.
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So I was like this is the best thing in the world.
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I love snow man.
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Give me snow six, seven, eight, nine months out of the year.
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I'm fine with that.
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I say that now, until we have a real winter this coming winter.
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And then I'm like I hate it, I hate everything.
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Speaker 1: Well, when it gets too much, pack up your kitty and
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your dog and yourself and come down here to California for a
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few months.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go See.
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Yeah, it is just.
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I mean, I was just in California last week.
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I was in Sacramento and it was 110 degrees and I was like, huh,
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I would rather go back to my mountains now.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you Now.
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You've spoken of how dear the characters in the House of the
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Cerulean Sea are to you and how you've been unable to get them
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out of your head.
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Why are the story and why now, so?
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Speaker 2: I have this thing and look, I mean this when I say
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this.
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I mean it, you know, in the spirit of which it's intended.
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I had a choice growing up I could have either been a writer
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or psychotic.
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Because I hear voices in my head, I hear characters, they
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talk to me.
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That's how it's always been and that's how I write.
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And normally when I finish a book and it's the end say, like
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under the whispering door, in the lives of puppets, the
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characters essentially go back to sleep and that is the end of
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that Chauncey.
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However, chauncey from the house in the australian sea does
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not shut up chauncey, chauncey, chauncey, chauncey.
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I always think in terms of chauncey, especially in the
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voice of the narrator, daniel henning, who gave you know life
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to chauncey and all the other characters.
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I hear his voice, his version of chauncey, in my head all the
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time.
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And I did not plan on necessarily there being a sequel
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.
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I thought the House in the Cerulean Sea, under the
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Whispering Door and the Lives of Puppets would all be
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standalones.
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But there's just something about these characters in the
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House in the Cerulean Sea, something very particular about
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Arthur, that I wanted to explore more.
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This book Somewhere Beyond the Sea is a love letter to Arthur
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Parnassus and all the people in the world like him, people who
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give so much of themselves without really asking for
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anything in return.
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But what happens when those people need something in return
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but they just don't know it yet?
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What happens if these people, these remarkable, wonderful
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people, have taken on so much onto themselves that they forget
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that they can share the load sometimes?
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And that's what I wanted to explore with Arthur specifically
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.
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I could have written this book from Linus's point of view again
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.
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I could have gone any number of different directions, but this
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felt distinctly like a story that could only be told by a
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character like Arthur, because this gets into the more granular
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details.
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This gets into the nitty-gritty of what it means to be a parent
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of a kid who is different than other kids.
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This is what it means to be a parent who wants to protect that
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child and let them have those differences, all while knowing
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the world outside might not respect those differences.
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And what do you do as a parent?
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You want to protect your kids as much as you possibly can, but
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at the same time you have to let them grow, you have to let
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them make mistakes, you have to let them figure out who they are
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, and you have to hope that everything you have to let them
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grow, you have to let them make mistakes, you have to let them
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figure out who they are and you have to hope that everything
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you've done for them will be enough to allow them to do that.
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And I think a story like that could only have been told from
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someone like Arthur.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Arthur definitely has that deeper
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understanding of children with magic than perhaps Linus,
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Although I love it when Arthur says to Linus normal can be
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magic too.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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But at the same time it's important because there are
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things that Linus cannot do, and I'm not just talking about
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magic, I'm talking about also putting himself in the shoes of
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the children or putting himself in the shoes of Arthur.
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For all that Linus is, he is not a magical person.
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He has not faced the same kind of bigotry and vitriol that the
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magical community has.
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This becomes part of the book too.
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In the sequel, linus and Arthur having these discussions about
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Linus being the type of person he is doing all that he can, but
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sometimes he still can't understand what it's like for
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them.
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And because he's never been in that position, he came in as an
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outsider, which I think was a good first take on the book on.
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The first book was to have an outsider come in and now that we
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know these characters, now that we know who they are, having
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Arthur take over the story felt natural, because it's an
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extension of the first story, but in a completely different
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way.
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It tells a very different side of this world.
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Speaker 1: Yes, but at the same time, you also nurture this
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preciousness between the two of them, because both characters
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are gorgeous.
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Speaker 2: I agree, I think so too.
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Speaker 1: There's a letter that you penned to readers that went
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out with the art copies of Somewhere Beyond the Sea.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the early reader copies got a letter from
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me.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was heartfelt and I'm going to quote
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a little from the letter.
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In the past few years there has been significant uptick of
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anti-LGBTQ plus vitriol, particularly against the trans
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community.
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Legislation meant to harm them.
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People screaming that trans people should not be allowed to
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live freely.
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Parents doing whatever they can to keep their trans kids safe,
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End quote.
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Your words are reflected in Arthur's story in his need to
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protect his children, To understand the fierceness of
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parental protection over their children.
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Did you speak with parents, particularly parents of trans
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children, and did you lean on memories from your childhood?
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Speaker 2: So, with this book, as with the previous book, a lot
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of my research was me talking to social workers, was me
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talking to teachers, was me talking to medical professionals
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?
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That was the first book and while I did the same again, I
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wanted to follow up to see if there had been changes made in
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social work, to see if it had become any easier, to see if the
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social workers had become infinitely more paid than they
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have been.
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And unfortunately, no, they are still not paid anywhere near
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what they should be.
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The job is still extraordinarily difficult and
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you have to be to me, you have to be a very special kind of
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person to do that work, because social work in particular is
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extraordinarily difficult.
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You see things day in and day out that are horrifying.
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You see some of the things that children have to go through,
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some of the abuse that they've suffered, the home life that
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they've had.
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It's terrible.
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But on top of that, with this book in particular, the reason
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this book exists, the reason that this book exists at all, is
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because of the trans community and what they have been through
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over the last few years in the united states uh, in the past
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few years parents of trans children, trans people and
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medical professionals who provide gender-affirming care
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were asked to come and testify in front of our government.
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And when they got in front of the government, the politicians
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typically fell into two camps.
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A, they said we see you, we hear you, we respect you, and
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then they turned around and voted against the legislation
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that would have helped protect the rights, enshrine the rights,
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of trans people.
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Or the second, and the worst ones, were the people who, the
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politicians who sat up there with their smarmy little smiles
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and questioned trans people about their bodies, about their
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minds.
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They questioned trans parents about their parenting skills.
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They have been called groomers.
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They have been called indoctrinators.
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They have been called groomers.
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They have been called indoctrinators.
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They have been called pedophiles.
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Trans people who testified and spoke their truth were subjected
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to some of the most horrific, horrific language that anybody
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could be subjected to.
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I was very fortunate to be able to speak to some of the people
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involved in the testifying and the testimonials and I asked so
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many of them questions.
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But one question that I asked across the board knowing what
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you know now, knowing the reaction that you received from
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people who are supposed to represent you, would you still
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go through this again?
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Would you still get up there and speak, knowing what the
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reaction is going to be.
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Every single person I asked that question to said, yes, I
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would get up there and speak.
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My truth and that is fundamentally the most important
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thing, is that these people, regardless of the reaction they
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receive from people who are supposed to represent them, they
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would do it all over again.
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So, yeah, I spoke with parents.
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I spoke with parents of trans kids.
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I spoke with parents or trans kids.
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I spoke with trans people.
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I spoke with people who foster, people who adopt.
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I spoke to people who have been fostered or adopted.
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Because if I'm going to be telling this type of story, I
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need to make sure that I'm doing my due diligence to tell this
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story correctly, and especially since I am telling this story
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not necessarily as a trans allegory, but as the fact that
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so many of us know what it feels like to be othered.
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So many of us know what it feels like to be told we're
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different and lesser.
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Somehow, trans people in this day and age, in 2024, are under
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such an extraordinary attack, the likes we haven't seen in a
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very long time.
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And if I use my platform to just tell stories, then what am
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I even doing?
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I need to use my platform, this privilege that I have been
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given, to speak up about things that are important not just to
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me, but to my community.
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Do we really think, does the LGBTQ community really think,
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that they're going to stop with trans people?
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They won't.
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They'll come for the rest of us .
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I have privilege being a cis, white, gay man.
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I have that privilege, but I'm also aware of the fact that if
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they succeed in their dismantling of the trans
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community, they're going to go for the rest of us.
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They have already signaled Supreme Court justices have
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already signaled that they think that the right to same-sex
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marriage that is only not even a decade old oversteps and should
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be overturned.
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We thought that that wasn't going to happen with Roe versus
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Wade and the abortion rights, but it did.
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So are we really going to think that they're going to stop with
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just that?
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The last thing I want to say on that is it's very important to
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me to recognize that transphobia is deeply mired in misogyny.
00:15:40
We hear all of these stories on the news about trans people
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getting pulled from sports, competing in sports.
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Here's the thing, though you don't hear it about trans men.
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It's always trans women, and there's a reason for that is
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because transphobia is misogyny dressed up.
00:15:57
When we hear stories about transwomen getting pulled from
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competitions involving darts or pool, when did men have the
00:16:06
biological advantage at something like darts or
00:16:08
something like pool?
00:16:09
That's not a thing.
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That's not a thing get.
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I am very, very vocal in my support of my community,
00:16:19
particularly the trans community , who need people to speak up,
00:16:25
and at the same time, we also need to listen when the trans
00:16:27
community is speaking, saying, hey, this is wrong, we are, we
00:16:31
are under attack, and so I just I have this platform and I have
00:16:35
to do what I can with it.
00:16:36
I have to speak up, because if I don't, if I just tell stories,
00:16:39
then I'm not doing my job correctly.
00:16:42
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear you say that, tj, and I have a
00:16:45
question for you regarding using your platform.
00:16:48
I'm finding that writers are the ones in the creative world
00:16:53
speaking out for all of the people who need our help right
00:16:57
now and need a voice the LGBTQ plus community, women's rights,
00:17:04
teachers' rights my goodness, librarians' rights.
00:17:07
It goes on and on and on.
00:17:10
Speaker 2: Genocides in Gaza and stuff like that too.
00:17:12
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
00:17:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:14
The thing is, though, that I haven't seen that much art.
00:17:17
I'm hoping it's in other parts of the world, but I haven't seen
00:17:21
as much art focused on political activism, social
00:17:25
justice and human rights as I thought or I had hoped to.
00:17:29
For example, do you remember the fabulous Shepard Fairey
00:17:33
posters, the Hope?
00:17:34
Speaker 2: posters.
00:17:35
Speaker 1: Yes, I love driving around LA and seeing those
00:17:38
posters.
00:17:39
They truly did give me hope.
00:17:40
Yeah, and I love the new Shepard Fairey poster he's
00:17:44
created of Kamala Harris.
00:17:46
It's beautiful, but my question is where are the other artists?
00:17:51
Is it me not looking in the right places, or are you seeing
00:17:56
this as well, this lack of visual art in the streets?
00:18:00
Speaker 2: To me, honestly, I remember those days, those early
00:18:05
days of Obama, with the Hope posters and stuff like that, but
00:18:08
now, honestly, to me, it's been co-opted by the right.
00:18:12
Because now, if you think about it, what do we see?
00:18:14
When it comes to art, quote, unquote it's Trump, it's
00:18:18
pictures of Trump, it's Trump doing this.
00:18:20
You have your Trump bumper stickers, you have your Trump
00:18:22
flags and stuff like that.
00:18:23
And I think it's so funny whenever I see people say online
00:18:27
, say something like well, you don't see, you don't see Biden
00:18:31
with his stickers, you don't see people wearing, and I'm like
00:18:34
like, well, that's because we don't idolize politicians.
00:18:37
Nobody should idolize a politician.
00:18:40
Politicians across the board are there to get rich and that
00:18:45
is what they do.
00:18:46
And so I just I think that we are finding different mediums to
00:18:52
be able to to combat the, the, the anger and the vitriol that
00:18:58
is being thrown our way.
00:18:59
And if I can do it with words, then that's what I'm going to do
00:19:02
, because that's what I knew how to do best.
00:19:04
Speaker 1: And thank heavens, you do In 2022,.
00:19:07
I interviewed Eliza Leventhal, head of Technical Service in the
00:19:11
Prints and Photographs Division at the Library of Congress,
00:19:14
along with activist Nadine Seeler.
00:19:17
Eliza and Nadine worked to preserve the Black Lives Matter
00:19:21
memorial fence art in DC and found a home for the collection
00:19:25
at the Library of Congress.
00:19:27
The beauty of this art collection is that it's raw art
00:19:32
created by everyday people wanting and needing their voices
00:19:36
heard.
00:19:36
It's a truly fabulous collection and kudos to the
00:19:40
Library of Congress for seeing the importance of this
00:19:43
collection and preserving it Well see that's how it's going
00:19:48
to be.
00:19:48
Speaker 2: It has to be everyday people.
00:19:50
It has to be, because if we leave it up to people in power,
00:19:55
nothing will ever get done.
00:19:56
That's just that's.
00:19:58
That's how it is.
00:19:58
I mean look, I mean you can, you can vote, and I hope you do.
00:20:03
Please, please vote.
00:20:04
It's one of the biggest rights, the best rights that we have in
00:20:07
this country to make your voice heard.
00:20:09
But at the same time, you kind of have to wonder.
00:20:12
You vote for people, for change .
00:20:14
You hope that there can be change when people come in, but
00:20:18
when is that change going to start?
00:20:20
When do we start to see the change that we've been wanting?
00:20:25
When are we talking about and I think a lot of times about how
00:20:30
queer people don't necessarily have a large population of the
00:20:35
generation above us, because they were killed off by Reagan
00:20:38
in the 80s and 90s with the AIDS crisis.
00:20:40
So when it comes to quote unquote queer elders, you have
00:20:46
people of my generation who are trying to keep queer history
00:20:53
alive.
00:20:53
We are trying to tell the younger generations you need to
00:20:57
know where you came from, the people who fought for you to be
00:21:00
here, because our history isn't just historic, it's also still
00:21:05
very hot to the touch.
00:21:06
It's not so very long ago Again , obergefell.
00:21:10
The right for same-sex marriage was in 2015.
00:21:13
That was nine years ago and I remember, when that happened,
00:21:16
the jubilation, the joy that people felt, but also you had
00:21:21
the halfwits who would say things like oh well, I guess we
00:21:25
solved homophobia.
00:21:26
Look, gays can do everything that we can.
00:21:28
And remember, in the lead up to that, there were people crying
00:21:32
on the news, crying online.
00:21:33
Oh well, now is it going to be okay to marry your cousin?
00:21:36
Now is it going to be okay to marry your cousin?
00:21:38
Now is it going to be okay to marry your dog?
00:21:39
Because gay people can get married, and that's something
00:21:43
that we've had to live with and hear while getting to experience
00:21:46
our joy.
00:21:46
So now, nine years later, when everything should be moving
00:21:49
towards a place of peace and hope and prosperity, we find
00:21:53
ourselves taking gigantic steps backwards because of the fact
00:21:58
that bigotry and hate has been normalized.
00:22:02
Speaker 1: Well, I definitely believe in the power of the arts
00:22:04
to bring forth change.
00:22:06
Yeah, we're definitely in a pickle right now.
00:22:09
We're a bit of a mess.
00:22:10
Speaker 2: We are a mess, but at the same time we are beautiful.
00:22:14
We are beautiful, beautiful people.
00:22:16
I often say I don't like people , but I love humanity.
00:22:20
I love humanity because they are able to create some of the
00:22:24
most beautiful pieces of art, music, whatever.
00:22:27
It's wonderful.
00:22:28
It's when you get down to the people aspect of it that I have
00:22:31
an issue.
00:22:32
Speaker 1: Beautifully said, tj, and I believe that it starts at
00:22:36
home.
00:22:36
We have to start creating a movement at home and then moving
00:22:41
it out into our community, speaking with others, showing
00:22:45
people how they register to vote , supporting our local libraries
00:22:49
and I know you are a huge supporter of libraries.
00:22:52
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
00:22:53
Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm going back to the book.
00:22:55
Your character, david the Yeti, enjoys acting, particularly
00:22:59
playing the role of a man in a child's body.
00:23:01
David is concerned about not only fitting in with his new
00:23:05
family, but also about the monster.
00:23:08
While one could read over this, it felt multi-layered and
00:23:12
somewhat of a cry for help from a young boy wanting and needing
00:23:16
to understand who he is.
00:23:17
So where did David come from?
00:23:19
Is there some of your youth in him?
00:23:22
Or is he a reflection of the internal battles of grappling
00:23:26
with sexuality, particularly when how someone sees themselves
00:23:31
is what those slagging the vitriol you wrote in your letter
00:23:34
might call monstrous?
00:23:35
Because with David there's a playfulness about the monster.
00:23:40
Speaker 2: David was born because of two of my favorite
00:23:44
pieces of literature, and this will probably make sense to some
00:23:50
people, might not make sense to others, but two of the most
00:23:54
seminal works to me in the English language are when the
00:23:59
Wild Things Are and Calvin and Hobbes by Bill Watterson.
00:24:04
Calvin and Hobbes is, to me, one of the greatest pieces of
00:24:09
visual art and language that I've ever had the pleasure of
00:24:12
reading.
00:24:12
When David is first introduced in the book, he's playing a role
00:24:16
.
00:24:16
He's playing the role of a private investigator.
00:24:19
He's acting out a play that is 100% based off of Calvin and
00:24:25
Hobbes.
00:24:25
There's a specific character that Calvin plays, called Tracer
00:24:30
Bullet, where he pretends he is a private eye private
00:24:35
investigator.
00:24:35
And one of my favorite lines from that let's see if I can get
00:24:39
this right he says that he has a bottle and a gun.
00:24:44
One slug is for him, meaning the bottle, and one slug is for
00:24:49
his enemies, meaning the gun, and it's just that kind of
00:24:54
language, that kind of pseudo-serious noir language,
00:24:59
was something that I am constantly tickled by.
00:25:01
So when I was writing David, at least initially in his opening,
00:25:06
it was an homage to Bill Watterson.
00:25:09
It was an homage to Tracer Bullet, a comic that, if you
00:25:14
have not read Calvin and Hobbes since you were a kid, or if you
00:25:17
have not read Calvin and Hobbes at all, I highly suggest reading
00:25:20
it as an adult because it works on so many different layers
00:25:24
that you would not have gotten when you were a child.
00:25:26
I find joy in rereading all those comic strips because
00:25:30
there's so many little details that you can find that you
00:25:34
missed when you were younger reading it, and David obviously,
00:25:38
was born from that.
00:25:39
But also David, as you mentioned , finds joy in the idea of being
00:25:43
a monster.
00:25:44
He is teaching something to Arthur specifically that there
00:25:50
can be that fear doesn't always have to be bad.
00:25:54
Fear can be healthy to a certain extent.
00:25:57
Fear is something that we all experience and if we can control
00:26:03
the circumstances in which we are presenting our fear, then
00:26:07
maybe those things that scare us might not be so frightening
00:26:11
after all.
00:26:11
And that's what David brings to the island, and it's wonderful
00:26:16
because it has this push and pull, because Arthur for so long
00:26:19
has been fighting against that word monster.
00:26:21
He's been fighting against that .
00:26:23
So what happens when a child finds joy in that word, comes to
00:26:28
live with them?
00:26:29
What does that look like for Arthur?
00:26:31
What does that look like for the rest of the kids?
00:26:33
What kind of push and pull could that make between not just
00:26:37
David and Arthur and David and Linus, but say David and Lucy?
00:26:41
Lucy, who has been told by so many people that he is a monster
00:26:47
and he doesn't want to be.
00:26:49
He wants to be something else, but at the same time, when he
00:26:52
hears that David gets to be a monster or wants to be a monster
00:26:56
and he can't do that, what does that look like for two kids to
00:27:01
come together like that?
00:27:02
I never wanted David to ever feel like an outsider.
00:27:06
I never wanted David to come to this island and feel like
00:27:09
people did not like him.
00:27:10
So, while there is the moments where maybe they do butt heads a
00:27:14
little bit, david, and say Lucy , it always comes back to them
00:27:19
being friends, them finding their way to each other, david
00:27:23
finding a home after not having one for so long.
00:27:26
And I loved, loved the energy that he brought to the island
00:27:31
and brought to the characters, because I think, like Linus in
00:27:35
the first book, david is helping Arthur open his eyes a little
00:27:40
bit.
00:27:41
Arthur is I don't want to say he's stuck in a rut, but he has
00:27:44
been in protective mode for so long that maybe sometimes he
00:27:49
forgets that he doesn't always have to be like that.
00:27:52
He needs to also find moments of quiet joy for himself too,
00:27:56
and if that means seeing a kid like David act out, him being a
00:28:00
private investigator, then that's the greatest thing in the
00:28:03
world.
00:28:03
Kids man, kids need to be allowed to be weird.
00:28:07
They have to be weird because when you're a kid, you don't
00:28:11
have the filter of cynicism that comes with age.
00:28:14
You don't have this idea that you have to be a certain way.
00:28:19
When you're a kid, everything is interesting, everything is
00:28:22
fascinating, and kids say some of the strangest things because,
00:28:25
again, they don't have that filter and they should be
00:28:28
allowed to be that way.
00:28:29
I think that kids who are weird I was a weird kid and that is
00:28:38
not a bad thing.
00:28:38
That is a great thing, because look what happens to some weird
00:28:40
kids.
00:28:40
Look what I grew up to do.
00:28:41
I get to write stories about other weird kids who are like me
00:28:44
.
00:28:44
I get to do that to tell people it's okay to be different.
00:28:48
Speaker 1: One of the things that really popped out for me in
00:28:51
this book was the fact that you have Linus and Arthur nurturing
00:28:56
and holding Lucy as one would a little boy.
00:29:00
It was motherly and fatherly and it was gentle and sincere,
00:29:05
that need for human touch, because with all his bigness,
00:29:10
lucy is just a little boy.
00:29:14
Speaker 2: He is In the first book he's six.
00:29:15
In the second book he's seven.
00:29:17
And kids love affection.
00:29:20
Kids they do.
00:29:21
They hang on you, they hold on, especially with people they
00:29:24
know and trust and love.
00:29:25
They will hang on you, they will climb on you.
00:29:28
They're like little cats and it's so important for me to show
00:29:33
that, even though Lucy, for example, is supposedly this big,
00:29:39
terrifying thing, his powers are.
00:29:42
We don't know the extent of his powers, but he's still a kid.
00:29:45
He's still a kid who acts like a kid, who needs comfort, who
00:29:50
needs to know that he's okay.
00:29:52
Even though he is, you know, this boy who has spiders in his
00:29:57
brain and maybe a demon in his soul, he's still a kid and
00:30:02
that's why I included him in the first book and that's why I
00:30:05
continued with him in the second book, because I wanted to show
00:30:08
that even somebody who's told that they're going to be the
00:30:11
biggest, most frightening thing in the world, they're still a
00:30:15
kid.
00:30:16
He's only seven years old in the sequel.
00:30:19
He's growing up and he knows who the people who care about
00:30:24
him are.
00:30:24
He knows his protectors and I just I think of him like a
00:30:28
spidery little monkey is what he is.
00:30:30
Speaker 1: Hearing you talk about Lucy's age of seven
00:30:33
reminds me of an article I read, written by psychologists many,
00:30:37
many years ago, and I wish I had kept the article, but I didn't.
00:30:40
The gist of the article was that when we reach age seven,
00:30:46
it's often the time in our lives where children might have night
00:30:50
terrors, or maybe they're more fragile than they used to be,
00:30:55
and that this is also often the time when maybe they experienced
00:30:58
their first death.
00:30:59
It could be the death of a pet, it could be the death of a
00:31:03
grandmother or great grandfather , but what happens is that they
00:31:07
get this sense that there's a reality and a fantasy world, and
00:31:11
I couldn't help but think about that as I was reading about
00:31:14
Lucy and the other kids, because there's times in the book and
00:31:18
I'm not going to say which kids they are or anything but the
00:31:21
kids, even though they have their own rooms, they sneak in
00:31:24
and sleep with each other because of certain fears that
00:31:27
they've brought with them with each other because of certain
00:31:29
fears that they've brought with them.
00:31:30
Speaker 2: You know, I think of them as a family who doesn't
00:31:32
have personal boundaries with each other.
00:31:34
I think of them as just a loving collection of beings who
00:31:42
have found their way home and are trying to make the best of
00:31:46
it.
00:31:46
Speaker 1: Yes, and they do make the best of it.
00:31:48
In this unsteady world, would you say that writing is your
00:31:52
tonic?
00:31:53
Speaker 2: It is, it absolutely is.
00:31:54
Especially for things that I don't understand or that don't
00:31:59
make sense to me, I tend to try and write through them so that
00:32:03
way I can have a better understanding of it.
00:32:06
For example, under the Whispering Door exists because I
00:32:10
lost my partner and I wanted to understand how grief affected
00:32:15
people, because everybody in the world experiences grief, but
00:32:19
nobody experiences it in the exact same way, and I wanted to
00:32:22
understand why.
00:32:23
Did I get that answer?
00:32:24
No, but I did feel better by the time I'd finished, because I
00:32:29
was able to reevaluate and change my relationship with the
00:32:34
idea of mortality.
00:32:35
And so, with the sequel to Cerulean Sea, I wanted to
00:32:43
understand how anger and hatred forms, how anger and hatred
00:32:53
forms.
00:32:53
And you know realistically, and the easiest way to explain that
00:32:55
is that hate isn't learned, it isn't born.
00:32:56
We aren't born to hate, it's we're taught.
00:32:59
And that, to me, just blows my mind.
00:33:03
Out of everything in the world that we can do, out of
00:33:06
everything that we're capable of , why are we spending so much
00:33:10
time teaching others how to hate ?
00:33:11
I don't understand that.
00:33:13
Isn't everything already difficult enough?
00:33:17
Why do we need to add that on top of it?
00:33:19
And so when I see stories, news stories of kids doing things
00:33:27
that are bigoted when they're homophobic, transphobic,
00:33:30
misogynistic, racist, anything like that.
00:33:33
I remember that they were taught that that's not
00:33:38
necessarily who they are, but they were never given a chance
00:33:40
to figure out who they are because they were taught to hate
00:33:42
, and I know we have to counteract that somehow.
00:33:47
And if it's just continually saying this isn't how the world
00:33:52
is supposed to be, this isn't how we should be, why is it so
00:33:57
easy to hate something rather than to try and understand it,
00:34:03
even if you don't understand it?
00:34:05
If it's beyond something for you to understand, why does the
00:34:09
automatic reaction then need to be to tear it down to hate?
00:34:13
Why is that the first thing so many people go to?
00:34:16
I don't get that, and so I write to try to understand that.
00:34:21
I write to try to understand.
00:34:23
You know I'm not saying I put myself in the shoes of bigoted
00:34:26
people, because I'm not a bigoted person.
00:34:28
I can't be like that.
00:34:29
But I try to think if you're so angry at something, where did
00:34:34
that anger come from?
00:34:36
Where did that vitriol come from?
00:34:38
And if that's something that you can inspect, if that's
00:34:42
something you can look at internally, maybe you should and
00:34:45
maybe you think is this making the world better?
00:34:49
And to go down on a more micro level, is this making me better?
00:34:53
Is this making me a person that I'd be proud to be?
00:34:57
And I like to think that most of the people who are like that
00:35:01
don't ask themselves that question, because the
00:35:04
alternative is that they do ask themselves that question and
00:35:08
they're fine with the answer.
00:35:09
And I refuse to believe that.
00:35:11
I refuse to believe that people can't change, people can't grow
00:35:16
and learn and become better versions of themselves.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: I was just jotting down notes while I was listening
00:35:21
to you speak.
00:35:22
I think for some people it's easier to hate than to love.
00:35:27
It's easier to discriminate rather than to understand
00:35:32
another's point of view.
00:35:34
It's difficult for them to hit the pause button, take a breath,
00:35:38
step back and think about what they're going to say or how they
00:35:43
are going to react in a certain situation.
00:35:45
Speaker 2: Yeah because it also provides, you know, serotonin
00:35:49
through the idea of validation.
00:35:51
You know they're when they're getting that hit, when they're
00:35:53
getting hate, they're thinking oh, I was right about this.
00:35:55
Because they'll go looking for things that fit within their
00:35:58
worldview and anybody can find anything in the world that fits
00:36:01
in with your worldview.
00:36:02
But at the same time, why are you like that?
00:36:05
What benefit does it have to you to spend your days creating
00:36:12
turmoil, creating hate and bringing others down?
00:36:15
What does that do?
00:36:15
And if that makes you feel good as a person, then you need to
00:36:20
check in with yourself and find out why that brings you joy.
00:36:22
Because, man, I'm not here to yuck anybody's yum, but that's
00:36:26
not okay.
00:36:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, TJ.
00:36:29
Okay, what are you currently reading I?
00:36:33
Speaker 2: just finished reading Stephen King's new short story
00:36:37
collection.
00:36:37
You Like it Darker?
00:36:39
Because I will read everything that that man writes.
00:36:42
I love Stephen King.
00:36:45
I've been reading him since I was probably far too young, but
00:36:47
people my generation born in the 70s, 80s and 90s you probably
00:36:51
read Stephen King at like age 11 or 12.
00:36:53
And I find his shorts.
00:36:57
I love everything he does.
00:36:58
Obviously I'm a fanboy, but I love his short stories Because
00:37:02
I'm not very good at writing short stories, because short
00:37:05
short work is hard, harder than it is to write a novel and so I
00:37:09
love reading his short work because it teaches me things.
00:37:12
It teaches me how to become a better writer.
00:37:15
And there's a particular short story in that collection called
00:37:19
Rattlesnake, which is a crazy sequel to one of his novels,
00:37:25
cujo.
00:37:25
That came out in the 80s.
00:37:27
And it's crazy, it is so good.
00:37:32
It is so good.
00:37:32
I'm just in awe of a man who has been published for 50 years
00:37:37
and still releases one or two books a year.
00:37:39
And he's in his late 70s.
00:37:41
I can only hope that my career will have that kind of longevity
00:37:46
, because man, long live the king.
00:37:48
Um, the other book that I'm reading right now, that I'm
00:37:51
going to start next I just bought is um paul trembley.
00:37:55
He is a horror author.
00:37:57
He most people would probably know him, his his book knock at
00:38:01
the cabin, or what was it called ?
00:38:03
Uh, the cabin at the end of the world was made into an M Night
00:38:07
Shyamalan movie a couple of years ago.
00:38:09
His new book, called Horror Movie, just came out.
00:38:11
I am very hit and miss with Paul Tremblay.
00:38:14
I have disliked more of his books than I've actually liked,
00:38:19
but I continue to read because his writing is fascinating.
00:38:23
His writing how he tells story.
00:38:24
I may not always like the story , but I can like how it's told,
00:38:27
and his writing is so good.
00:38:27
I may not always like the story , but I can like how it's told
00:38:29
and his writing is oh, it's, so good.
00:38:31
I just I'm trying to find the book that really hits for me of
00:38:34
his.
00:38:35
I've read everything he's written, trying to find the one,
00:38:37
and we'll see if horror movie is the one that that knocks it
00:38:40
out of the park for me.
00:38:41
But if it doesn't, at the same time at least I'm going to know
00:38:44
that there are some gorgeous, gorgeous writing in there and
00:38:48
one other book that I did want to pop out, and it's something
00:38:52
that I wish.
00:38:54
I talk about this book all the time.
00:38:55
Do I have a copy of it here?
00:38:57
I do.
00:38:57
This book is one of the most banned books in the United
00:39:00
States.
00:39:01
It's called Flamer, by Mike Curato.
00:39:04
It is a graphic novel and I will tell you this if this book
00:39:09
had existed when I was a kid, if I could have had this book at
00:39:12
age 13, 14 years old, so much of my life would have been
00:39:15
different.
00:39:16
This is remarkable and it is one of the most banned books for
00:39:20
a reason because it is beautifully queer.
00:39:23
It is wonderfully queer and deals with some pretty heavy
00:39:26
topics, but at the same time, it's one of the most vital and
00:39:30
important queer books that has been published in the last
00:39:33
decade.
00:39:33
And I am 100% supporting Mike Curato in all that he does,
00:39:38
because he is a fantastic author and I think Flamer is one of
00:39:42
the most important queer books.
00:39:43
Speaker 1: And I'll make sure to put links to all these books in
00:39:45
the show notes.
00:39:46
A couple of things before we go .
00:39:48
I wanted to say thank you for putting the Emily Dickinson
00:39:51
quote Hope is the Thing with Feathers in the book and I
00:39:55
wondered have you read Grief is the Thing with Feathers by Max
00:39:58
Porter?
00:39:59
Speaker 2: Yes, I have.
00:40:00
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that book.
00:40:02
Speaker 2: I love it too.
00:40:02
I absolutely love it too.
00:40:04
Speaker 1: TJ, as always, it's been great having you on the
00:40:07
show.
00:40:07
Somewhere Beyond the Sea is yet another beautiful book written
00:40:11
by you.
00:40:12
Speaker 2: Thank you.
00:40:13
Speaker 1: And.
00:40:13
Speaker 2: I just want to say real quick the world is scary,
00:40:17
people are scary, but if there's one thing that I know to be
00:40:21
truth, to be fact, is that the generations that are coming up
00:40:25
now are more worldly.
00:40:28
They're smarter than we ever were at their age, because they
00:40:31
have the entire world in their pocket in the form of their
00:40:34
phone.
00:40:34
They can look up any piece of information they want, and if
00:40:38
you think kids aren't paying attention, then you are
00:40:41
absolutely wrong.
00:40:42
I have been lucky enough to tour around the world and speak
00:40:45
to hundreds, if not thousands, of kids.
00:40:47
They know what's going on, they know what's happening to their
00:40:50
trans classmates, they know what books are being taken from
00:40:53
their schools.
00:40:54
They know about wars and genocides that are going on
00:40:56
around the world, and they are angry, they are furious, and
00:41:01
there's the adage that the kids are going to be all right.
00:41:03
I absolutely believe that, because the kids are going to be
00:41:07
all right, they are going to change the world and one day,
00:41:10
when all these old white people in power are gone, they're going
00:41:13
to come up next and they're going to make the world as it
00:41:16
should have been from the beginning, something that is
00:41:18
welcome to every single one of us.
00:41:19
So remember people say it a lot the kids are our future, but in
00:41:23
this case they absolutely are, because they are going to make
00:41:27
this place as it should have been from the beginning.
00:41:31
Speaker 1: I'm with you on that TJ.
00:41:32
Last year I did a panel with Gen Zers and a couple of
00:41:37
psychologists one from UCSB and one from UCLA and the two Gen
00:41:42
Zers were some of the wisest kids I have ever spoken to,
00:41:46
probably wiser than some adults I've spoken with.
00:41:49
And for people complaining about them and saying, oh,
00:41:53
they're not voting, my suggestion to you is to ask the
00:41:57
question why aren't they voting?
00:41:59
And listen to their answers, because they have really good
00:42:05
reasons as to why they're not voting.
00:42:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:10
Look for the reasons they're not voting and then make the
00:42:11
changes.
00:42:12
Make the changes that are necessary to do that.
00:42:15
See the point of that somewhere beyond the sea.
00:42:19
The point of this conversation, the point of what I do, is that
00:42:23
so many decisions are being made on behalf of children, but
00:42:27
why is no one asking them what they want?
00:42:30
We give them all the credit for being smart and intelligent and
00:42:34
worldly people, but why is no one asking them then what they
00:42:39
want?
00:42:39
Because I think that if we did that, oh man, the answers would
00:42:43
surprise you about what they think, about what's going on.
00:42:46
Give them the opportunity to speak, give them the opportunity
00:42:50
to use their voice and, I guarantee it, you are going to
00:42:54
be blown away by what they have to say Again.
00:42:57
They are our future, they are the future and they are going to
00:43:00
do everything with their power and it's up to us to help them.
00:43:03
That is the best thing that we can do is to help them fix what
00:43:07
is broken.
00:43:07
Speaker 1: Yep, I completely agree.
00:43:09
Tj, you are a genius, I wouldn't go that far.
00:43:14
Tj, once again, thank you for being on the Bookshop Podcast.
00:43:18
I love your new sequel, somewhere Beyond the Sea.
00:43:22
It's just a beautiful, beautiful book and, let's face
00:43:26
it, it's hard writing a sequel.
00:43:29
Speaker 2: It is.
00:43:29
It is so hard People don't realize that.
00:43:34
People will think, oh, it's a sequel, it's easy.
00:43:36
No, you have to abide by every single rule that you created in
00:43:40
the first book.
00:43:40
And if you're suddenly writing a sequel and think this is a
00:43:43
good idea, but then it breaks the rules that you've set up in
00:43:46
the first book, you can't do it.
00:43:47
Speaker 1: Sequels are hard, but you did an awesome job and
00:43:50
thank you for writing the book.
00:43:51
Thank you for being here and I wish you all the best.
00:43:56
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me again.
00:43:58
I'm so appreciative that you that you want to talk to me more
00:44:00
.
00:44:00
I love being able to talk about this stuff and thank you for
00:44:04
thank you for the the well thought out questions.
00:44:06
You might be surprised how often I do stuff like this and
00:44:08
the questions are you know.
00:44:10
So thank you for putting time and effort into the questions.
00:44:14
It really makes a difference.
00:44:15
I really appreciate it.
00:44:17
Speaker 1: You've been listening to my conversation with TJ
00:44:20
Klune about his new book Somewhere Beyond the Sea, the
00:44:24
sequel to the House in the Cerulean Sea.
00:44:27
To help the show reach more people, please share episodes
00:44:30
with friends and family and on social media, and remember to
00:44:34
subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this
00:44:37
podcast.
00:44:38
To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to
00:44:42
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00:44:46
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00:44:48
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00:44:53
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00:44:57
If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to
00:45:00
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00:45:04
the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom.
00:45:07
The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, Mandy
00:45:11
Jackson-Beverly, Theme music provided by Brian Beverly,
00:45:15
executive assistant to Mandy, Adrienne Otterhahn, and graphic
00:45:19
design by Frances Perala.
00:45:21
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.
00:45:24
Thank you.
