Fonda Lee

Mandy Jackson-Beverly (MJB): Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a bibliophile. Welcome to the bookshop podcast! Each week I present interviews with independent bookshop owners from around the globe, authors, and specialists in subjects dear to my heart, the environment and social justice. To help the show reach more people, please share it with friends and family and on social media. And remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to Episode 198 Fonda Lee is the author of the epic fantasy Greenbone Saga, beginning with Jade City continuing in Jade War, and concluding in Jade legacy. She is also the author of the science fiction novels Zeroboxer, Exo, and Cross Fireand two novellas, the Greenbone Saga Prequel, The Jade Setter of Janloon and her new novella, Untethered Sky. Fonda is a winner of the World Fantasy Award, the Lucas award and a four time winner of Canada's National Science Fiction and Fantasy Award, the Aurora Award, as well as a multiple finalist for the Hugo Award, the Nebula Award and the Oregon Book Award. Her novels have garnered multiple star reviews and appeared on Best of year lists from NPR, Barnes and Noble Syfy Wire and others. Jade City has been translated in a dozen languages named to Time Magazine's Top 100 fantasy books of all time, and optioned for television development. She has also written acclaimed short fiction and been an instructor at writing workshops including Viable Paradise and Clarion West. Fonda Lee is a former corporate strategist and Black Belt martial artist who loves action movies and eggs benedict. Born and raised in Canada, she currently resides in the Pacific Northwest. Hi Fonda and welcome to the show. It's lovely to have you here.

Fonda Lee: It's great to be here. Thanks, Mandy.

 MJB: Oh, you're welcome. It's my pleasure. And I love Untethered Sky.

 Fonda Lee: Thank you.

 MJB: Let's begin with learning about you and what you were doing before you realized you wanted to become a serious writer.

 Fonda Lee: I had an entire career before I became a writer. So, I wanted to be a writer when I was young, I think I was probably around 10 years old, I told my parents I wanted to become a author. And they smiled and nodded, and said, 'That's lovely. You can do that anytime you retire, but go to college and get a degree and a real job.' So that's what I did. I ended up going and getting a business degree and then an MBA, and I had a career in corporate strategy, and in management consulting, before I changed gears and went in a very different direction. I had always written as a hobby for myself. And so I had this pipe dream, oh, wouldn't it be wonderful one day, if I managed to get a book published, and I was working a full time job, I had two kids and no time to write, or have any hobbies of my own. And had this I guess, a crisis slash epiphany, where I realized I don't really want to be doing what I'm doing, I really want to get back to what I love, which is writing. And so I took a swerve and decided to cut back on my day job and work part time, and get really serious about being published. So I wrote a novel—that was sort of my practice novel, and I didn't query it. I wrote another novel that I did query, and that didn't go anywhere. And then I wrote what would become my debut, Zero Boxer. And that's what found me my agent and my first book deal. And then after Zero Boxer, I said, 'Well, that was fine, I could do it again.' And so one thing turned into another and here I am!

 MJB: I'm always intrigued by publishing stories, and how a writer goes from completing their first finished manuscript to an agent and getting a publishing deal. And what I found interesting in your story is that it wasn't the first manuscript that you finished and wrote that was published. And I think this is important for listeners to understand. And for anybody who is starting to write who may have finished that first manuscript, it may not be that manuscript that gets published.

 Fonda Lee: It really isn't. In the case of my debut, I was querying, another book and was coming back with a few requests here and there, but I got a great piece of advice, which was just start working on your next thing. And so I wrote my next novel, and I went to a writing conference. And I still wasn't sure whether or not I should try and pitch the new novel or the one that I was already querying. And so I did one of both. I did a couple pitches with the old book and a couple of with new and the new one got immediate interest. I ended up leaving that writing conference with three or four requests for the full manuscript. And that's when I said, Well, I'd better query some of my other top agents that I really was interested in. So I did that. And so between the conference and the other agents that were on the top of my list, I ended up with multiple offers of representation. I signed with my agent, Jim McCarthy, who I've been with since the start of my career. And we went through a round of revision, and went on submission and sold the book. And so it all happened fairly quickly. And I think that's something for listeners to take away. For those of you who are listening in and are at the beginning of your publication journey, is that sometimes everything seems to be moving at an extremely glacial pace until it all happens at once. So that was certainly the case with me, it felt like query for a long time writing, trying to get an agent, and then it was like, agent submission, book deal! And then the book was in the publication schedule. And so it does work out like that. Sometimes it's hard to tell. I've seen people query and go on submission for years and years, and others who had it happen in an incredibly short amount of time. And it doesn't necessarily say anything about your success, either. Because, you know, it's so unpredictable, the whole publication process.

 MJB: It certainly is. And do you remember the name of the writing conference you attended?

 Fonda Lee: It was Willamette Writers. So, I'm in Pacific Northwest and Willamette Writers is a pretty big conference here that happens every year in August, and it has great writing classes. And also a lot of agents come out and will take pitches. And it was satisfying because I've been back to Willamette Writers a few times since as an instructor, so it feels very full circle of life.

 MJB: Oh, how wonderful, and isn't it great to be able to give back once you've had that success. You can now give it back to new writers.

 Fonda Lee: Yeah.

 MJB: Now, your new novella Untethered Sky is set in a world inhabited by humans and creatures from Persian mythology; rocs, enormous birds of prey, and manticores, a winged animal with a head of a human the body of a lion and venomous spines. In the story, humans known as ruhkers are chosen to befriend and work with rocs, the only creatures able to kill manticores. At the story's beginning, Esther asks Governor Govad to nominate her to become an apprentice ruhker, which he grants and Esther's relationship with her roc, Zara, begins. When Esther first sees Zahra, you write, quote, 'I loved her with the gravity of a stone sinking into a pool,' and later, 'Zara and I were complete, we were the sun and the wind, the sky and the earth, life and death above the world and untouchable,' end quote. You dedicate this novel to Sasha, quote, 'a very good dog and writing companion,' end quote. And you thank falconers Essa Hansen and Anne Heintzman in your acknowledgments. So this book has a strong sense of love and respect for animals and the human animal connection. Is this an innate part of your personality? And how much did you learn from spending time with falconers?

 Fonda Lee: That's a great question. I think it's the first time I've been asked it. But I think that you really hit on something, that maybe I haven't even thought about that consciously with the book, but I wrote this book because when I was a child, I had this real love for animal companionship stories, and I desperately wanted a pet when I was a kid. Maybe it came from being a bookish introvert. I don't know, I was just was fascinated by animals. And I was the child that was strangely obsessed with nature documentaries, and I loved books like Where the Red Fern Grows, and Julie of the Wolvesand My Side of the Mountain, and all the stories of animal companionship. And I think I was drawn to them. Partly because, like I mentioned, I really wanted a pet and my parents didn't get me one until much later. But also, I think I was really drawn to something about the animal human relationship and the sort of self-sufficiency of the characters in those books. And there's something about them, that is really tied to the coming of age story. And I think that's why you see so many of these stories in middle grade fiction as well, where they're stories of people kind of finding themselves through this relationship that is very pure and unconditional, if you will, right? Like animals don't have the same expectations of you as as people do. And so a lot of these stories were about learning to accept yourself and learning to love another but in a very pure and childlike way, if you will. As I grew up the falconry aspect that shows up in this novel is something that sort of also always fascinated me and I absolutely do not have the skills or the time, or the ability or patience to be a master falconer. But I remember I've visited a number of raptor centers. I went on a hawk walk with a falconer while I was on family vacation, and I watched the documentary called The Eagle Huntress about a Mongolian girl who is following her people's tradition of training a golden eagle to hunt wolves. And so all these little elements of just my fascination with falconry, kind of bled into wanting to write a fantasy story that featured that sport and that relationship. But I think one of the things that writers do is we often write stories to give ourselves an excuse to research something

 MJB: That is so true Fonda!

 Fonda Lee: Or oh, you know, we can be like, oh, yeah, no, I'm doing this, and it's book research! And so going on the hawk walks and talking to master falconers and learning about falconry was the research that I got to do as part of writing this story. And so it was a very pleasant reason for me to sort of indulge an interest area.

 MJB: And when you went on the Falcon walk that was in Ireland, is that correct?

 Fonda Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

 MJB: It's such a beautiful country.

 Fonda Lee: It's gorgeous there. Yeah.

 MJB: And I agree with you when you were talking about animals giving us unconditional love. And without giving away a spoiler for Untethered Sky, there is actually a separation toward the end of the story between two characters. And while this is painful, there's also a rebirth of romance built between two characters. I know I can't say too much because I don't want to give away any spoilers. But throughout the entire story, I did sense this innate draw towards the love of animals with the writer, with you. And of course, then when I read the dedication, I chuckled.

 Fonda Lee: Yes, I also love the process of trying to come up with who to dedicate a book to because I'm sort of at the point now where I've written enough books that I feel like oh, each one I tried to figure out well, who is the right person somatically to dedicate this book to, and of course, I had to dedicate it to Sasha—she's not here, where is she? She's normally lying underneath my desk and I can't like move my camera. So she's over on the other side of the room.

 MJB: What kind of a dog is she?

 Fonda Lee: She is a mutt of some sort. She's a shelter dog. But we think that she is a terrier mix because she has that scruffy fur that makes her look like Benji or a Steiff Teddy bear,

 MJB: A little cutie. And did you always visualize Untethered Sky as a novella, and were there obstacles you faced developing the story in this form?

 Fonda Lee: No, not at all. I originally thought it would be a novel. Because that's all largely what I've written up until this point is novels. I've written short stories as well. But novels are about 96% of my brain. And so when I started writing Untethered Sky, I just assumed it would be a novel. And I started working on it. And I began working on it many years ago and set it aside, because I had other books on contract, and I wasn't entirely sure where it was going, and what the main conflict was. And when I was finishing up my epic fantasy trilogy, I had breakfast with Jonathan Strong, who's the editor of the novella, and is at Tor.com. And he said, 'Have you thought about writing a novella,' and he caught me at the exact right time because I had just finished writing a huge trilogy ending novel. And I thought, novellas are short, short, sounds wonderful! And I, for years been thinking I would come back to Untethered Sky at some point. So I went back to that manuscript, and I looked at it. And when I looked at it through the lens of potentially being a novella, things snapped into place. And I then I essentially rewrote it, but I rewrote it as a novella and found the sort of the key that made it work,

MJB: And it works perfectly. And I can also see it being a YA novel, but it crosses over beautifully into adult reading. The story is multi layered, and if you go really deeply into each character they are also multi layered. It's one of those stories where when you're finished reading it, you discover more about the book by thinking about it, and I love it when a story does that to me.

 Fonda Lee: Yeah, I'm glad you noticed that because I very much did mean it as right in that crossover space where it is, you know, it's published as adult fiction, but will also work very much as a YA novel because of those coming of age themes. But, yes, it also is the memoir, it's written in a way that I hope evokes that this is an older, wiser Esther, who's looking back on her youth,

 MJB: Well, you did a beautiful job. Let's talk about the cover of the book. Because Tor has done a fabulous job. It is stunning! I'd love to hear about the artist. And I wondered if you were given any input regarding the style of the cover design. 

Fonda Lee: You're right, it's a gorgeous cover. And one of my most anticipated parts of working with tor.com, when the book deal came through was I knew they would give it a great cover, which I was super excited about. I initially began having conversations with my editor and with the art director around what we envision the cover might be like, and I said, I could see it being sort a painterly style, something that's sort of evocative, because it has these elements of being of a story being out in nature. And I wanted to sort of evoke the sense of being in the wild and sort of that landscape kind of feel, and which is all very vague direction. And then they came back to me and gave me a couple of sketches from a different artist, not Jamie. And I looked at them, and I was like, Oh, this isn't exactly what I was looking for. And I don't remember which artists they went to, but the initial sketches that they gave me, were much more action figury. I'm not being able to find a better word for it. But they, they looked much more, I guess, like, what you would think of when you imagine, you know, action fantasy, almost like a battle scene kind of feel to them, comic book like, if you will. And I said, Well, these are very, they're very well done. They're very nice pieces of art, but they weren't the vibe that I was trying to have, you know, as the cover. And my editor and I both agreed, and we were like, Well, okay, I mean, if we're gonna go this direction, here's some of the feedback that we had. And it's not exactly what we're looking for, but maybe if you change this, and this, it could work. And to my astonishment, Tor came back and said, you know, you're right. And as it turns out, Jamie is free. And we're going to get him to do it. And shortly thereafter, Jamie got back to us with two sketches, both of them, which were fantastic, and exactly what I was looking for, and that cover with the angle of looking up at Esther and Zara just seemed to capture it so well. So I'm, I'm really thrilled. I have had very different experiences with publishers when it comes to cover input. Sometimes they give you more of a voice, and sometimes you are just given your cover, and this is it. And I was I was really pleased with how Tor listened to me when I said, you know, this is not exactly what I think the book is supposed to be. And they 100% heard that and adjusted and came back with something fantastic.

 MJB: Everything I've heard from authors who work with tor.com. say it's always a fabulous experience. TJ Klune is another, I spoke with him a couple of months ago, and we spoke in-depth about his cover designer.

 Fonda Lee: Yes. And those covers are also gorgeous.

 MJB: Yes, they are. When did you first become involved with Tor?

 Fonda Lee: At that breakfast with Jonathan. I have other books with another publisher, with Orbit. And Jonathan, really, he just caught me with the idea of writing a novella. And then I said, well, I think I have something that might work. And I shared it with him. And he said, yeah, and then got hooked up with tor.com. And that all's well that ends well.

 MJB: Do you keep to a specific daily writing schedule? And if so, what does that look like?

 Fonda Lee: I always wish I had a specific writing schedule. I try and I have these waves, I would say, when I am actively drafting, I usually do have I wouldn't say necessarily daily goals, but I have sort of short term goals—I will say, I want to get these two chapters written this week, for example. And then I will try and set aside a certain amount of time and I'll know well, Thursday I have a book event I have to do, are I'm teaching a class or what have you. So I'm gonna try and work this much on the other four days, and try and hit that goal. And I will vary that goal. It depends whether I'm revising whether I'm in the middle of a book launch, whether I'm drafting whether I'm in the research phase, so each day feels like it is a little bit different. And I don't have you know, as a set, I don't stick to a specific word count goal necessarily, but I will back in to where I need to be based on deadlines. So, well, no, I need to have this book handed in by this date, and that means that I should have a first draft done by this date. And that means in terms of how much I have to write each day. But I, you know, I am kind of a sometimes hot and cold writer. I know, some writers are extremely steady, they write the same amount every single day, I'm definitely not like that. I have a hard time writing when I'm traveling. So I know I sort of set aside, those times when I'm traveling and do lighter work, often do an admin day, or I'm just doing other author type work. But I find I'm always trying to hack my own process and find ways to be productive in the work for a while, and then I'll have to find something else. So recently, for example, I found I just need to get out of the house, maybe it's three years of pandemic, and just being completely sick of my home office. But I've had to rent a co working space, so I can just go work somewhere outside of my house. And, you know, I've done things like, print my manuscript out on hardcopy, and work on it longhand, because I need to switch up how I'm working on it, which is a very, very long winded way of saying, no, I don't really have a day to day routine. But I do try to keep myself disciplined and working towards go deadlines that are either externally set, or that I set for myself.

 MJB: Fonda, your answer was so refreshing to me. We are all humans living this life of busyness. And most people I know who are creatives, artists, writers in theater, whatever, or in film, they are freelance, which means they never know when they're going to work. So to have a dedicated writing schedule is really difficult. And as we spoke about earlier, many writers teach, and that's not always a flexible schedule. And I think one of the worst things writers can do is to compare themselves with other writers, especially when on social media, people are posting, 'Oh, I wrote 5000, I wrote 8000,10,000 words today.' You do what works for you. Now tell me, are you a procrastinator?

 Fonda Lee: Oh, goodness, yes. Oh, I mean, that, I hope that this is of some comfort to writers who are listening. Because even the professionals we procrastinate, we find excuses to not write when it's hard. Because anything is easier on a day to day basis. There's almost always something that you can do that is easier than writing; unloading the dishwasher, updating your website, I mean, there's always something that you can do, that's easier than sitting down and figuring out your manuscript! Especially when it's not working, especially when there's something that is really structurally complicated about it, or, you know, you have to rewrite it from scratch, there's always something that is telling you, you know, you can put this off. And so it is hard. I think it is very hard to maintain that sort of self-discipline as an author, day in and day out. And you mentioned that people can write 5000 words a day constantly, I've only really been able to achieve that when I go away on a writing retreat and I know, I'm here for three or four or five days. And this is the specific project that I'm working on. And I already know what scenes I'm going to write and then I can do that. But there are days where I plan to write a certain amount and I ended up spending the whole day re-outlining because I realized that you know, the scene isn't working and it needs to be moved somewhere else. There's this, there's this balance of having to be flexible, and okay with the process, being messy, but also holding yourself to account. And sometimes it's hard to do both.

 MJB: I think it's about learning to be fluid. There's a fabulous little book I've had for many years called Be Like Water: Practical Wisdom From the Martial Arts, written by Joseph Cardillo. And he talks about learning to be fluid and how if you watch water coming down a little rivulet and into a river, it goes up and around over boulders and stones, whatever it has to do, but it keeps moving. So we have to learn to be like water. And hopefully we'll end up in the place where meant to be.

 Fonda Lee: Yes. Hopefully, eventually.

 MJB: Yes, exactly. Now, what did you gain emotionally by writing Untethered Sky? And was there a section of the story you found challenging to write?

 Fonda Lee: Hmm, gosh, I'll answer the second question first. I think the section that I found difficult to write was it wasn't a specific section but it was more the pacing of the novella to cover the amount of time that I wanted to cover and give the full story. So I think the coverage of Esther's time as a ruhker, fitting that into the constraints of a novella, was probably the biggest challenge. And how do I make that passage of time feel smooth to the reader. And as for sort of the emotion as the emotional connection, though, I really did feel like Esther's journey as a roc trainer, for me mirrored a lot of my feelings about the creative process and about being an author. So I'm not a falconer, I'm also not a monster trainer, and I can only do research into the aspects of what that requires. But what I found hooked me into the story emotionally, was a lot of the things that she goes through when it comes to wanting to be good at what she does, and to achieve some level of success as a roc trainer in this field that's relatively like insular and not well understood, reflected, for me a lot of what it was like to try and be a professional author. And a lot of the things you see Esther go through, are, like, emotionally analogous to that. Like she has time she has imposter syndrome. She has times where she is very successful. And she has like the thrill of that success, much like your book launch happening. But then she realizes, no, the day-to-day work is she has to go back and she has to sweep out the pen and she has to do the drudgery. You know the day-to-day tasks. She has moments where she's jealous of a colleague's success. She has connections that she builds to other people who share the same love of the sport that she does. So for me personally, it's a story about being a writer. But my hope is that anyone else who's reading it will find what it means to them. Because I think it is, I think her journey of becoming a ruhker is that of like anyone who is really dedicated or committed to a particular calling that they feel like they have to do.

 MJB:

That's a fabulous answer, thank you. And what are you currently reading?

 Fonda Lee: Oh, gosh. So you mentioned TJ Klune. I have an event with TJ coming up and so I am reading In The Lives of Puppets.

 MJB: Oh, I think you'll enjoy that book. It's wonderful.

 Fonda Lee: No spoilers because I'm in it right now. But it's wonderful. So I'm excited to talk to TJ about that. And yeah, so that's what is currently on my bookshelf

 MJB: Fonda, it's been wonderful chatting with you. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you.

Fonda Lee: Yes. Likewise, good luck with the podcast and with all the writing projects. Have a great rest of the day.

 MJB: You've been listening to my conversation with Fonda Lee about her new novella Untethered Sky. To find out more about The Bookshop Podcast, go to the bookshoppodcast.com And make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson-Beverly and The Bookshop Podcast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, and on YouTube at The Bookshop Podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at TheBookshoppodcast.com. The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, Mandy Jackson-Beverly. Theme Music provided by Brian Beverley, executive assistant to Mandy is Adrian Odtohan, and graphic design by Francis Farala. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.