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Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly.

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Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast .

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Each week, I present interviews with independent bookshop

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owners from around the globe, authors, publishing

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professionals and specialists in subjects dear to my heart the

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environment and social justice.

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To help the show reach more people, please share it with

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subscribe and leave a review.

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Wherever you listen to this podcast.

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You're listening to episode 246 .

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Located in an old butcher shop in no Valley, san Francisco,

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omnivore Books is a cherished Epicurean hub blending a passion

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for food and the pleasures of reading.

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As the Bay Area's only culinary bookshop, omnivore Books

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specializes in new and vintage books on food and drink.

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They are open daily and staffed by passionate cookbook lovers

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who will happily guide you to the perfect book.

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The founder and owner is Celia Sack.

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Hi, celia, and welcome to the show.

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It's great to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thanks, mandy, it's an honor to be here.

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Speaker 1: I love to cook.

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I love cookbooks.

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So now I have an excuse to come up and visit you in San

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Francisco at Omnivore Books.

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But I warn you you may never get me out of there.

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Speaker 2: You're not alone.

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We've only had so far one customer stay the entire open to

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closing day.

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But a lot more people threaten to.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I can totally relate.

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Okay, let's begin with learning about you and your history,

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with rare books, dog walking and becoming the Bay Area's only

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culinary bookshop.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I went to I'm not going to do it for too long,

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but when I went to college I went to Sarah Lawrence in New

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York, which is about half an hour from New York City, and I

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got.

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But I was born and raised in San Francisco, so I, when I got

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there, I got an internship because my high school had been

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very into volunteering and internships.

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I got an internship at Christie's the auction house my

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freshman year and every single year that I was at college I

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made sure two days a week I had off so I could take the train in

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and work there.

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And so I was always telling my friends while your parents are

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supporting you, go into the field that you want to go in,

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work for free so it'll be on your resume.

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They all came to me later saying how much they regretted not

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listening to me.

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They all came to me later saying how much they regretted

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not listening to me, but I was the only one who did so.

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After four years there, though, I was in 19th century European

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paintings, not books.

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When I moved back to San Francisco, it was very easy to

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find a job at the one and only book auction rare book auction

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galleries in San Francisco, which is still here.

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It's called PBA Galleries, and I was the head of modern

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literature, but also you became the head of whatever collections

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sort of came your way.

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There were only two of us who, as a cataloger, you know you're

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writing the catalog but you're sort of selling the books by

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describing them and researching them, which is so fun because we

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would get Civil War diaries and Gold Rush letters and all sorts

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of things that were outside of my purview.

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I became the rear golf book specialist on the West Coast, I

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know, just because we got one good collection and I didn't

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even know that it was good.

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But people flew out from Scotland and luckily, a couple

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of the guys who came took me aside and told me what I had

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done wrong and which books were valuable in the lots and then we

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just started getting better and better collections until we

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were getting the best in the world and I was the go-to expert

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which is so weird because I don't even know how to play golf

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but I know everything about the history.

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So.

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But my collecting interest soon became the books on food, not

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just antiquarian cookbooks, but books that sort of were an

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anthropology of food.

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In particular, what I like to collect and still do is books

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about retail food businesses and how to do it, sort of from

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Victorian England.

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One of my favorites is a butcher guide to opening your

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own butcher shop and it shows samples not only of the signage

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and the window cases but of the cases, you know that, where you

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set up your meat.

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And it's so English.

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It says like sheep's head, sheep's heart, sheep's brain,

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fern and pot, fern and pot on each side.

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Oh my God, to make it pretty.

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But somehow I'm just fascinated with these guides.

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I saw a guide the other day at the Anne of Green Book Fair it

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was way too expensive and not exactly in my collecting

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wheelhouse, but it was from around that time on how window

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displays for shoe stores.

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Just an entire book, thick book , about how to do window

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displays for shoe stores from like 1900.

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So I really for some reason that those instructions on on

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all of that were fascinating to me.

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And then I'm also really fascinated with books on

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colonial cooking, colonial places like India and Africa and

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how those were approached.

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We can talk about that a bit later, though I will just tell

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you that after seven years at the auction house my wife had

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sort of inadvertently stumbled into taking over a dog walking

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service.

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Our dog walker moved back to Australia and she was between

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jobs and decided to take it over .

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And it was the very beginning of the dot-com era and so we

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were starting.

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She was getting more and more people who needed their dog

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walked twice a day and we she would take them here.

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We're very lucky.

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You can take like seven or eight dogs out to the beach and

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run them off leash.

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You don't have to keep them on leash, you just need a truck.

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So that business built up very quickly.

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I loved animals and volunteered at animal shelters a lot as a

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kid, so I joined her and we started walking dogs out at the

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beach every day and it got busier and busier.

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We ended up hiring a couple of people and then we decided to

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open our store about a year later, just so that we had a

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central space and it was right around the area that the dogs

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were After 10 years, which we really loved.

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But a lot of the dogs were dying because they were older or

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, you know, aging out, and we thought, well, we haven't been

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sued or audited, so let's get out while we can and do

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something a little calmer because also when something goes

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wrong in dog walking, in walking dogs off leash, it's

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always an emergency and it's always something that you never

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even conceived of or imagined.

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So the phone ringing was always really stressful you know the

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dogs were playing too hard in the back of the truck and they

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opened it and are running down the highway, whatever things

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that keep you up at night you know, yeah, it was things like

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that where you just have to like close the store and go running

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off and helping that, so.

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So anyway, we happily decided to stop and at the same time the

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space next door to our store became available and it's an old

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butcher shop.

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The front half, which was the pet store, which is the pet

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store is probably it was the grocery, and then the back half,

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was the, was the butcher shop.

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So there's this still, the scale hanging and the old

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redwood lined cooler and everything.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's what that is.

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I couldn't figure it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really amazing.

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And you'd hang and people, people, always in the store.

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You see their eyes drifting up and you're like, do I feel like

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answering this question today or not?

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But, um, they love to see back because the redwood is, you know

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, at least 120 years old, so it's very red and it's milled so

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long and wide and beautiful, and then it connects all the way

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through the back to the pet store.

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So it's a, it's amazing.

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And I thought, you know, I think it's time for me to get back

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into this more intellectual versus visceral world, and I'll

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never make it if I just open a store that's all antiquarian

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books.

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So why don't I have new and vintage or antiquarian?

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And I also thought I'll be the gateway drug for new collectors.

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I was hated as a young collector, the way that people

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would.

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You know, when I'd go into a bookstore that had some rare

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books, they were either behind the counter or way up high, and

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when you went to get it down, you know you start to get the

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stink eye from from people who work there, because I was like

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18 or 19, and until you start piling up and you're gonna buy

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and then suddenly they're really nice to you, especially in

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France.

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Um, so they're really mean until they're suddenly nice and

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their whole personality changes, but anyway.

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Um, so I thought I don't want to be that, I want to be

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accessible.

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Book collecting is sort of like the opera, like everybody's

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aging out who are fans and we need to get new fans.

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So one of the best ways to do that is to intermix the new

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books with the old ones, and so people can sort of also make a

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connection between wow, here's a book on pickling and preserving

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that just came out, and then next to it is one from 1910 or

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from wartime, world War II, telling you how to save, you

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know, economize your victory garden.

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And they start making the connection and they start

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getting less shy about exploring those books and checking

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through them.

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And their excitement is so palpable.

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And that was exactly what I wanted when I opened was to

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share.

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I had this beautiful library here at home and no one was ever

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interested in it, none of my friends, my partner and so to

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suddenly be able to share this passion and have other people

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respond to it in kind is so satisfying every single day.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful.

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Oh, it sounds fantastic.

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What you were saying made me think of the word artisan and

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artisan shops.

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And while there seems to be a little bit of a resurgence in

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smaller, independent specialty stores, the artisan shops, I

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don't think there's enough of them, and we kind of watched

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that happen with the birth years ago of the large chain

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supermarkets.

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We lost so many bakeries, delicatessens, butchers, a

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hand-painted wallpaper store.

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Yes, exactly, and it's good to see a lot of younger people

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coming in and whether it be, you know, a brewery or a wine shop,

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but they are coming back.

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I think these little artisan shops, the specialty stores, as

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is Omnivore Books, and this makes me so happy, I agree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah Well, what I've found throughout the eras of the

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cookbooks and also in real life , is that whenever there's a

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technological advance, like the Industrial Revolution or World

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War II with munitions, freezing you know, frozen foods in the

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1960s there's always a pushback and oftentimes it's back to the

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land.

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It's the arts and crafts movement to the revolution, it's

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victory gardens.

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In world war ii, it's, uh, the back to the land movement in the

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60s and in 2008, when the dot-com era, which was, of

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course, so important here in san francisco, uh became what did

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my friend call it?

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Dot squat, and all these people were laid off.

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That was exactly the year that I opened.

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I love opening.

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In a recession, there's nowhere to go but up.

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And so all these people were laid off.

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Suddenly they were coming in and buying books on raising

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chickens and making your own jam and they were starting to think

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about going back to the old ways and away from the

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technology of the internet and computers and back to sort of

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analog arts and doing their own thing.

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And it didn't completely last.

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Like that area was so popular for my first like two years how

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to butcher your own hand there were like butcher demos in the

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city.

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I mean it was crazy that you couldn't get into because they

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were so packed and that's you know, it's pulled back a bit,

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but it's happened so many times in so many cycles that I

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wouldn't be surprised if it happens again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree.

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And just looking at bread making during the pandemic, it's

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true For about six weeks.

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Speaker 2: It was six weeks and you felt it.

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Everyone was like fuck this, I can just buy bread down the

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street, I don't need the ajita.

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And it was like musical chairs just stopped and we were stuck

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with all these bread books that we had really over ordered oh my

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goodness.

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Speaker 1: Well, if it makes you feel any better, I'm still

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making my own bread.

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Speaker 2: I still have the same sourdough starter good, okay,

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well, uh, if you need a sourdough book, I've got

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hundreds for you to choose from.

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Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness.

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Well, let's talk about something that you kind of

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touched on earlier.

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Since opening Omnibold Books, have you noticed a change in the

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geographical scope of cookbooks and the defining of specific

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regions?

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Speaker 2: Hugely.

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I love, love, love that question because I feel really

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proud of the cookbook community and publishers for expanding the

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reach.

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When I first opened, I think you know, all the books that we

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had about Indian cuisine, chinese cuisine, eastern

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European were all, were all just sort of a mishmash of all of

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that.

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It was a wide brush and nothing got really specific and it was

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very hard to find regional cooking from certain places,

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south American cooking.

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You wouldn't find like a Colombian cookbook or an

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Argentinian cookbook, something like that.

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Now and I think we still have a ways to go, but there are so

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many more options there's a really great small publisher I

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love called Interlink, and they publish a lot of books about

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Eastern European countries and also Middle Eastern and African

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countries.

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And I remember when Trump got in the first time and

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immediately banned I know, immediately banned Muslims from

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coming into the country and there were certain countries

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that he banned.

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I put a window up in my front window of all the cookbooks from

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all the countries where people were banned from and said you

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know, these people are no longer allowed in learn about them,

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and most of the publishers were.

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I mean, most of the books were published by Interlink.

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I noticed that and they're distributed now by Simon

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Schuster.

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But you know, now you get a Romanian cookbook and a Georgian

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cookbook and Now you get a Romanian cookbook and a Georgian

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cookbook and you know, I think it'll even get more specific.

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Like, filipino still needs we need more countries.

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African, there are several, but we still need more countries.

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And same with South American, but it's getting better and

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better and we're seeing a lot more regional and Indian

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especially.

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We see regional now and I love making room for those because I

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just love and people love to see their heritage represented when

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they come in Our Filipino events.

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Whenever we have an author come off the hook.

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Off the hook all arrive and there's like a local Filipino TV

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crew outside.

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There's pot plates that they've set up in my store of like.

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It's like a local Filipino TV crew outside there's pot plates

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that they've set up in my store.

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It's like a party that I didn't even know was going to happen

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and packed, and people are just so, so excited to see respect

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and excitement about their own food.

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It's wonderful.

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Speaker 1: What a wonderful idea for a window display.

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You know it goes to show people that one person, specifically

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Trump, can't take away our love, our curiosity and our respect

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for people worldwide and we welcome them here.

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We welcome their cultures, we welcome their food, we welcome

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and celebrate our differences.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and the books are sort of a portal.

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I mean, the food is a portal to learning about that culture,

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more than I think, more than any other genre, and so it's, you

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know, it's just so important.

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Like last night we had a talk by this woman, crystal Wilkinson

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, who was the the poet laureate of Kentucky from like for the

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last couple of years, and she has a book called Praise Song

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for Kitchen Ghosts.

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Speaker 1: I have my signed copy of Praise Song for the Kitchen

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Ghosts which I bought from you from Omnivore Books.

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It's a wonderful, wonderful book.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks.

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Yeah, it was such a good talk and the book is all about her

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Black relatives from Appalachia, which most people don't realize

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that Black people even lived in Appalachia but she up in the

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mountains.

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But she's talking about her ancestors and relatives and what

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they did there.

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So you're getting recipes, but you're getting so much more than

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that.

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Speaker 1: Well, particularly with that book, you're getting

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these great stories, and cooking and stories go together for me.

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People say to me well, how did you learn to cook?

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Where did you learn to cook?

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It was my mom just standing in the kitchen as a little girl,

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watching her, never measuring anything, throwing everything in

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and the perfect gravy would turn up or the perfect stuffing

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or whatever.

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And then I guess from home ec.

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You know we had that in Australia, but it's the stories

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that I love to remember whenever I cook something that mum

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taught me how to make.

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It's just so endearing.

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It's a wonderful, warm, hearted memory and when you think about

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it, cooking is one of the few things we do that brings to life

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all of our senses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And how lucky are we that we can go to somewhere like

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Omnivore Books and get this infusion of cookery books from

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so many regions.

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Speaker 2: And one thing also is that I'll just say that,

00:19:07
because it's such a specific, my store is such a specific

00:19:12
subject, even though also, just you know, have those micro

00:19:15
specific books about particular regions when I find them, and

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you know, when I find one that oh, I've never seen a cookbook

00:19:38
from you know, trinidad and Tobago or whatever.

00:19:40
I get all excited and, and you know, happy to have it represent

00:19:45
.

00:19:45
Speaker 1: Is it easy to find many of the ingredients or the

00:19:49
spices that are used in a lot of these cookery books from other

00:19:52
regions in San Francisco.

00:19:54
Speaker 2: We're pretty lucky.

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Yeah, lots of, lots of yeah.

00:19:59
We have a bounty of just about everything.

00:20:02
Speaker 1: It's probably like that in most major cities.

00:20:04
I know it is in Los Angeles.

00:20:06
Let's get back onto books.

00:20:08
What do you see as the philosophical difference between

00:20:11
downloading a recipe online and using a cookbook?

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Speaker 2: Excellent question and I have to credit my wife,

00:20:18
paula, for coming up with the best answer to that.

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She said it's like downloading one song instead of buying a

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whole album, and I think that's it's kind of like the perfect

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thing to say.

00:20:33
You know, it's great if you want to make a key lime pie and

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you need to go online, you know, just figure out how to make it

00:20:43
quickly.

00:20:43
You can go online and do that.

00:20:46
It's fine, you'll probably find a decent recipe.

00:20:49
Go online and do that, it's fine, you'll probably find a

00:20:55
decent recipe.

00:20:55
But if you love someone's sense of taste and the way that they

00:20:57
write a recipe, buying their cookbook like okay, alison Roman

00:21:00
great, great, great cookbook writer and very popular.

00:21:04
But what I love about her books is that she always uses

00:21:09
combinations of ingredients or flavors that I wouldn't have

00:21:13
thought of on my own and I took a lot.

00:21:16
So I don't actually use that many cookbooks, but having her

00:21:20
book always inspires me to make something else and I wouldn't

00:21:24
really know how to look up that recipe or whatever it is because

00:21:29
I'm just searching through and looking for inspiration.

00:21:32
Speaker 1: That's a fabulous answer.

00:21:33
And in the world of streaming and getting back to the artisan

00:21:38
world that we were talking about earlier, it is important to

00:21:42
support your favorite musicians or your favorite authors, and

00:21:46
the best way to do this is to buy the book, buy the album.

00:21:50
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

00:21:51
You know, a lot of my customers will actually take a cookbook

00:21:55
out of the library first, and then, and if they like it and

00:21:59
they've used it a few times, then they'll come in and buy the

00:22:02
book and I think that's a great idea.

00:22:04
I mean, that way, you're not, you know, committing to the

00:22:07
whole thing without knowing if you're going to really like it.

00:22:10
Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but I have a lot of

00:22:12
my mother's and grandmother's cookbooks that were handed down,

00:22:16
and what I love about them is the side notes.

00:22:21
Something will be written, such as don't use this much sugar,

00:22:25
use half a cup instead of a cup, or add more cocoa.

00:22:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I know Paula does that all the time.

00:22:33
My favorite thing she does is she'll write the date of when

00:22:37
she made something and then like the next couple of times she's

00:22:40
made it and she'll write still great.

00:22:49
Speaker 1: It's so great, though , that Paula does that, because

00:22:51
it makes the cookbook personal.

00:22:53
You know, it's almost like a cooking diary.

00:22:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one recipe of Ottolenghi's that she

00:22:59
really hated and she, you know, wrote all over it what she hated

00:23:03
and I photographed it and sent it to him and I was like I'm so

00:23:07
sorry, Not everyone loves every recipe.

00:23:10
He was cracking up.

00:23:13
Speaker 1: Oh my God, how did he take?

00:23:14
Speaker 2: it.

00:23:15
Oh, just fine, he was laughing, he's Israeli, he can handle.

00:23:19
You know their talk.

00:23:22
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness.

00:23:23
Speaker 2: Now.

00:23:23
Speaker 1: I got to talk about the mural on the front of the

00:23:26
store.

00:23:26
I love it.

00:23:27
What can you tell me about it?

00:23:29
Speaker 2: the mural on the front of the store.

00:23:30
I love it.

00:23:30
What can you tell me about it?

00:23:30
That was a local artist.

00:23:31
He lives in the Mission.

00:23:32
He's Salvadoran American.

00:23:34
I think he was born here, but his mother is from El Salvador

00:23:37
and she came too.

00:23:37
His name is Jose Rojas, j-o-s-u-e Rojas, and I found him

00:23:45
online.

00:23:46
I just searched for Mission District, which is famous or

00:23:51
Mission District is famous for its Mexican and Latin American

00:23:55
murals, and he came up and I liked some of the work that he

00:23:59
had done and so I asked him to come do it and I had a whole

00:24:05
vision of what I wanted it to be .

00:24:07
I already had the chicken in it .

00:24:08
That's a sort of a Wahawken design.

00:24:11
That was already there and my lovely landlord said I'm a

00:24:15
little disappointed that it's not bigger.

00:24:17
I was like what landlord does that?

00:24:21
So I was like I guess he'd be fine if we did the whole thing.

00:24:24
So I thought we'll incorporate pets, since the pet store at the

00:24:29
corner and food, and there's a Jewish school down the street

00:24:34
with groups of little kids go by every day.

00:24:36
So I really wanted them.

00:24:38
We're Jewish too, but I did want them to see themselves

00:24:40
represented in it.

00:24:41
So there's a challah roll.

00:24:43
There's that matzo ball soup that the little ones are making.

00:24:46
But he came up with the whole concept and he wanted every age

00:24:52
group to be able to enter it at some point.

00:24:54
So there's, you know, the Maurice Sendak characters from

00:24:57
In the Night Kitchen is the two chefs and that's probably for

00:25:02
your and my age.

00:25:03
There's the Campbell Soup Kids, which is really like maybe

00:25:07
1930s, and then there's a bunch from afterwards.

00:25:11
There's Ratatouille Rat.

00:25:13
There's afterwards, after us, that we wouldn't know the life

00:25:18
of pets.

00:25:18
So I know he did an amazing job .

00:25:21
Speaker 1: He sure did.

00:25:22
I love it.

00:25:23
It's so beautiful and makes me feel good, makes me feel happy.

00:25:28
Speaker 2: Thanks, it's a showstopper?

00:25:30
Speaker 1: Yes, that's for sure.

00:25:32
Okay, now you have bought and read hundreds of cookbooks by

00:25:36
numerous authors, restaurateurs and chefs.

00:25:39
Is there a standout cookbook you think emanates a particular

00:25:44
author's personality in the prose and the recipes?

00:25:48
Speaker 2: Yes, there's the one that people I do get asked a lot

00:25:51
what my favorite cookbook is.

00:25:53
If I have a favorite and I do, and it has stayed my favorite

00:25:57
all this time it's called the Zuni Cafe cookbook by Judy

00:26:01
Rogers, who unfortunately passed away several years ago now, but

00:26:05
Zuni Cafe is a really popular restaurant in San Francisco and

00:26:09
has been since the 80s.

00:26:11
The thing about the book, though you don't have to have

00:26:15
any reference to the restaurant to love it.

00:26:20
She tells you why you're doing what you're doing, in a poetic

00:26:25
yet concise way, so it's not too saccharine in the headnotes,

00:26:32
but it's not too scientific, because that bores me a lot.

00:26:37
I really, you know, I don't need to know the exact perfect

00:26:41
temperature to make my egg.

00:26:43
A certain way that science-y thing that men, frankly, are

00:26:48
into.

00:26:48
So I love it, it's true, but I love the way that she'll

00:26:58
describe.

00:26:58
You know why you want to crowd the tomatoes in a pan when

00:27:03
you're steaming them, how that, how that makes it better, so

00:27:06
that when you see that instruction in another cookbook

00:27:10
you know why you're doing it.

00:27:11
You don't need that explanation .

00:27:13
And also she just picks the perfect, perfect words.

00:27:18
I joke that it's the kind of book you can take to bed with

00:27:22
you to read in bed, because it's just, it's so well done.

00:27:25
You know, like for roast.

00:27:27
And it came out a while ago.

00:27:29
It came out in like 2010, I think, or 2008.

00:27:33
So some things have evolved.

00:27:36
Like she says, ask your butcher to get you a two to three pound

00:27:39
chicken Now it's fairly easy to find that and open it up.

00:27:44
If you can go buy it a day or two in advance, open it up and

00:27:46
put it on a plate in your fridge so that the skin dries out and

00:27:50
it's crispy when you cook it.

00:27:52
And that was before the days of you could just buy an air

00:27:56
chilled chicken.

00:27:57
But you know, now I do that with every roast chicken that

00:28:01
I'm making, even if it's not a recipe, and so that is the one

00:28:06
that I like to set people up with, because it's got technique

00:28:09
, it's got, you know, great recipes and, yeah, it was

00:28:13
fabulous.

00:28:14
Speaker 1: Highly recommend.

00:28:14
Well, that's another book I'm going to have to add to my list.

00:28:17
It sounds fantastic For anyone wanting to contact you regarding

00:28:22
a collection of cookbooks they've inherited.

00:28:24
Can you define what you are not interested in and what rare

00:28:28
cookbooks get you excited?

00:28:30
Speaker 2: This question has been the thorn in my side for my

00:28:34
entire business.

00:28:35
It's so hard to explain and people, honestly, they don't

00:28:39
really listen.

00:28:40
Anyway, you can actually you can say I'm buying things that

00:28:45
aren't still in print, that I can't just buy elsewhere.

00:28:49
I try to say, just to generalize it.

00:28:53
I'll say, you know, probably pre 1920s, and I'll say, oh, so

00:28:58
not a signed Julia child.

00:29:00
No, okay, yes, I want that.

00:29:03
And then, and then you know, I just don't want your like beat

00:29:07
up used.

00:29:07
Copy of Moosewood cookbook.

00:29:09
Speaker 1: Inevitably they bring me.

00:29:11
Speaker 2: Oh no, I just don't want your like beat up used copy

00:29:12
of Moosewood cookbook.

00:29:12
Inevitably they bring me oh no, I don't have that.

00:29:13
Inevitably that's what they bring me.

00:29:15
Their beat up used copy of Moosewood which is so

00:29:18
frustrating.

00:29:18
So it's a lot of people on the West Coast.

00:29:23
They're not as familiar with auctions, antiques, things like

00:29:28
that, because we're just a newer place than you know, just like

00:29:32
Australia.

00:29:33
We started so much later so we don't have things that go back

00:29:38
that far.

00:29:38
So they think really, really old is a 1970s copy of Moosewood

00:29:42
.

00:29:42
So I have to explain, and it's not just old, it's also unusual.

00:29:47
So you know, if you've got a Cuban cocktail book from the

00:29:52
1960s, yes, or 70s, I want it even though it's from that era.

00:29:56
So I guess you know the easiest thing to say is I don't want

00:30:00
anything that's still in print that I can get new, because I

00:30:05
don't sell used cookbooks.

00:30:07
Get new because they don't sell used cookbooks.

00:30:14
It has to be either long out of print and something unusual,

00:30:15
like a Sephardic cookbook or something from even that's 1990s

00:30:18
.

00:30:18
If it's out of print, that's a subject that's desirable.

00:30:21
So I can't give you a very good one line answer on that.

00:30:26
Speaker 1: That makes absolute sense, and I think what we have

00:30:28
to remember is what means a lot to us isn't going to mean a lot

00:30:32
to most people out there.

00:30:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people's idea of condition.

00:30:36
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly those stained side notes on pages

00:30:41
aren't going to mean as much to everyone else, unless I guess

00:30:45
they're signed by someone famous or the author of the book,

00:30:50
right?

00:30:50
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly, I did install recently, a

00:30:55
couple of years ago, a free cookbook library in front of my

00:30:59
shop and it's bolted to the wall so people can just stop by

00:31:04
anytime and drop off if they have their entire collection of

00:31:09
gourmet magazines, which is, or Bon Appetit, which is a constant

00:31:13
phone call, or you know, used cookbooks that I can't really

00:31:17
use, that are because they're either still in print or too new

00:31:20
, constantly dropping them off now and people pick them up.

00:31:24
So it's a really nice service to provide and also it provides

00:31:28
me a way to push off people who want to sell me their used books

00:31:34
.

00:31:34
Yeah, and even when you say we don't really buy used cookbooks,

00:31:38
they get offended Like well, these are not, I never touched

00:31:42
them, that's not what I mean.

00:31:44
Speaker 1: I love the idea of the library at the front of the

00:31:46
store.

00:31:46
What about cooking?

00:31:48
As a child did you enjoy cooking and have you become a

00:31:51
better cook since opening the bookshop?

00:31:55
Speaker 2: I've definitely become a better cook.

00:31:56
I feel a little bad that when I was a kid, especially a

00:32:02
teenager, my mother always was inviting me into the kitchen to

00:32:06
cook with her, and I wanted to be as far away from her as

00:32:09
possible.

00:32:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, teen years are tough age to want to

00:32:13
be near your mom, right?

00:32:15
Speaker 2: I know, I know and so I just I just didn't take her

00:32:19
up on it.

00:32:19
I have one great memory of the first thing that I ever cooked

00:32:24
that my mom helped me with, which was called like Greek

00:32:28
orange chicken or something.

00:32:29
It was very easy to do, but she helped me and I was probably

00:32:33
about seven, but I really spent so much time trying to avoid her

00:32:40
as a teenager and and so I didn't really pick it up until I

00:32:44
got out of school, um, and just started.

00:32:48
I think my very first cookbook was by Evan Kleinman, who is on,

00:32:52
you know, she has that show, uh , good eats on KCRW, or good

00:32:57
food, um, and she hosts me every year, actually in December, to

00:33:01
talk about the best cookbooks of the year.

00:33:03
Her book Pasta Rustica was really, or Cucina Rustica was

00:33:09
probably the first one I used, and I've gotten better and

00:33:11
better, especially because not just the books we get in, but

00:33:14
the talks that we have at the store we have usually events and

00:33:19
talks two or three times a week from authors, and so I learn

00:33:23
from them.

00:33:24
I feel like I've been in a 15 year extended ed course, you

00:33:27
know, because I learned so much about how things are made and

00:33:32
ideas of flavor combinations that I hadn't thought of.

00:33:37
So we had an Italian cook in recently.

00:33:39
She wrote a book called Italy by Ingredient and she's also a

00:33:44
local Italian cookbook, food instructor, cooking instructor,

00:33:48
and she talked about one dish during the talk of.

00:33:52
You put in a bowl, you shave, botarga, you know, which is

00:33:56
dried fish roe with a lot of butter and garlic and a little

00:34:01
bit of pasta water, and then when the pasta is done, you just

00:34:04
throw that in there and toss it , and it sounds so easy and

00:34:08
wonderful.

00:34:08
I went home and did it and it was incredible and it was like

00:34:11
this is the first time I'd ever made that.

00:34:13
So and I happened to have some botarga that I didn't know what

00:34:17
I was going to do with, but I resist buying, so it was perfect

00:34:21
.

00:34:22
Speaker 1: I love it when you try out a recipe that you've

00:34:25
tasted somewhere else and it turns out well.

00:34:28
It's so exciting.

00:34:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, and usually then you totally forget how to

00:34:33
do it and never do it again.

00:34:35
Speaker 1: Or you try it and it's a dismal failure.

00:34:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly what did I do right the first time

00:34:40
that happened.

00:34:41
Recently, I decided to learn how to fry oysters and with a

00:34:46
little cornmeal crust, and because we have a second home

00:34:48
near a very famous oyster place here at Foldhog Island, and so I

00:34:53
got them, it did them, they were absolutely perfect.

00:34:55
Everyone was freaking out, my friends, paula, and then every

00:35:00
time I've done tried it.

00:35:01
Since they've come out.

00:35:02
We see the batter's falling off .

00:35:06
I don't know what made the magic of that first time, but I'm

00:35:08
always trying to get back to it, you know.

00:35:10
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's frustrating because it can be,

00:35:12
you know altitude, it can be the oil you use, the temperature,

00:35:16
the oven, the stove.

00:35:17
It's frustrating.

00:35:19
Speaker 2: Exactly.

00:35:20
Did I not?

00:35:21
Did I do?

00:35:22
Did I miss a step in dredging them?

00:35:24
I know.

00:35:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh well, live and learn.

00:35:31
You've kind of answered this question.

00:35:32
I was wondering what your favorite cookbook is to hand

00:35:33
sell and if it was the Zuni Cafe Cookbook, which was, as you

00:35:36
mentioned, your favorite cookbook.

00:35:39
Speaker 2: Yes, there are a couple others, too, that I can

00:35:42
add on if it helps.

00:35:43
There's a really good one called Small Victories by Julia

00:35:47
Tertian.

00:35:47
That is a little less intimidating and more

00:35:52
photographs than Zuni Cafe, but it also gives you lots of small

00:35:57
victories, which are techniques, and each recipe is laid out

00:36:01
very simply, probably with the simplest version of it, but then

00:36:04
there's spinoffs in it.

00:36:06
She's written a lot of the books for Ina Garten, the

00:36:09
Barefoot Contessa, so she's really trustworthy and I love

00:36:14
handing people that book.

00:36:15
Small Victories, julia Turshen, t-u-r-s-h-e-n.

00:36:20
And then there are a couple of food writing books that I love

00:36:26
to hand people, and, in fact, last night, one of the authors

00:36:31
was in attendance for the event and he reintroduced himself to

00:36:37
me because he had given a talk in like 2010.

00:36:38
And I was like you owe me, buddy, because I hand sell your

00:36:43
book constantly and my employees do.

00:36:47
When I introduce them they were.

00:36:48
They were like oh, celia talks about you constantly.

00:36:50
He's a little shocked, but his book is called um Twain's Feast.

00:36:55
His name is Andrew B-E-A-H-R-S theirs, and it's all about the

00:37:04
foods that mark twain was writing about at the time that

00:37:08
he was writing and what's become of those foods so prairie

00:37:13
chicken, um canvasback duck and in maryland, tahoe trout and how

00:37:19
they've sort of.

00:37:20
It sounds like it could be depressing because a lot of them

00:37:22
have disappeared or shrunk it down, but the the way he writes

00:37:25
it is just wonderful.

00:37:27
And then he's got recipes from that era for those things.

00:37:30
And then there's another called 97 Orchard by Jean.

00:37:34
I think it's Ziegelman building in New York City with like five

00:37:44
or six different immigrants living there around.

00:37:48
You know the late 1800s.

00:37:50
It's got Germans, it's got Russians, it's got, I think,

00:37:54
russian Jews, it's got Italians and it's got Irish and each

00:37:57
family.

00:37:58
It sort of follows them and fictionalizes them, but then

00:38:02
goes into how the foods that they brought over from Europe

00:38:07
spread throughout New York City and became popular in the whole

00:38:12
country.

00:38:12
It's just fascinating and she takes you on such a wonderful

00:38:16
journey.

00:38:17
Speaker 1: I love the sound of that book and what a great way

00:38:20
to bring food back into stories.

00:38:22
I love that idea.

00:38:24
Yeah, to bring food back into stories.

00:38:24
I love that idea.

00:38:25
Yeah, okay, celia, now when you're not reading cookbooks,

00:38:28
what do you like to read and what are you currently reading?

00:38:32
Speaker 2: I read fiction.

00:38:33
I really love good fiction.

00:38:36
I just finished Absolution by Alice McDermott, which was

00:38:41
fantastic.

00:38:42
I think my favorite book is Cannery Row by John Steinbeck.

00:38:47
It's so funny and the first two pages are the best I think the

00:38:58
best opening ever in literature.

00:38:58
Speaker 1: And then right now, I'm reading this fantastic book

00:39:00
For our listeners, who can't see what you're holding the book is

00:39:16
Northwoods by Daniel Mason.

00:39:17
Speaker 2: I've heard of it but I've not read it yet.

00:39:20
In Western Massachusetts, all the way through the 20th century

00:39:24
and into current day, and who the residents were and what

00:39:29
happened to it throughout time and what happened to the nature

00:39:32
around it and the forest.

00:39:34
And he manages to write each chapter sort of in the voice of

00:39:39
the day of the time that he was writing, but it does not sound

00:39:43
contrived when he does it, it just fits in perfectly.

00:39:46
It's masterful.

00:39:47
I have a good time with nonfiction.

00:39:49
Sometimes I'll listen to it by podcast, but I don't know.

00:39:54
It's hard for me to stay interested.

00:39:56
I don't know why.

00:39:58
I would like to be the kind of person that can read nonfiction,

00:40:00
but I never seem to be.

00:40:03
Speaker 1: You know, I find I learn about nonfiction in well

00:40:07
written fictional books and my prescription for reading fiction

00:40:11
is that you're in another person's point of view or

00:40:16
multiple characters point of view, and I think that helps us

00:40:21
understand empathy and learn empathy.

00:40:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally yes, yeah, and I love you know.

00:40:28
Plot is okay, but I'm more interested in character

00:40:31
development.

00:40:31
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm the same.

00:40:33
Yeah, I like a story that pulls me into a relationship or

00:40:37
relationships.

00:40:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, annie Proulx's books like Brokeback Mountain

00:40:43
and Shipping News, anything, and Steinbeck and Twain and Dickens

00:40:48
they all are so much about building a character that they

00:40:52
stay relevant and current and pull me in.

00:40:56
Speaker 1: There's a book I'd like to share with you.

00:40:58
It is one that we had to read in Australia in high school and

00:41:03
it's called A Fortunate Life by the author AB Facey.

00:41:08
He taught himself to read and write and was in World War I,

00:41:14
but the story and the way he talks about early life in

00:41:18
Australia and the relationships and the funny twists and turns

00:41:22
that happen throughout his life, his relationship with the land,

00:41:26
it's just wonderful.

00:41:27
It can be a little difficult to get out here, but if you can,

00:41:32
it's definitely worth the read.

00:41:33
Speaker 2: I'll find it, you know me.

00:41:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Sherlock Holmes of the book world, that's

00:41:40
my specialty.

00:41:40
Do you happen to know Don Lindgren from Rabelais Books?

00:41:44
Yeah, in.

00:41:45
Speaker 2: Biddeford, maine.

00:41:46
Yeah, I just had lunch with him actually, or breakfast.

00:41:50
He was seriously my inspiration for opening.

00:41:55
I met him at an antiquarian book fair here in San Francisco.

00:42:02
He was displaying and he had some more modern books that were

00:42:06
like a first edition of, say, omnivores dilemma.

00:42:09
For some reason I hadn't it hadn't occurred to me that you

00:42:13
could sort of make a market for newer, rare books.

00:42:17
Just, uh, I was just thinking of it's either new or it's

00:42:21
antiquarian, like you know 19th, and there's no in between.

00:42:25
But he sort of got me to see that oh, there are a lot of

00:42:28
books actually that are sort of scarce, from mid century or even

00:42:33
current ones that we can.

00:42:35
There's not much of a market for yet, but between us and any

00:42:40
other booksellers we can make a market for those.

00:42:42
And I thought if he can do it in Portland Maine, I can do it

00:42:45
in San Francisco.

00:42:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was on the show a couple of years ago and

00:42:50
whenever I see his posts on social media, there are these

00:42:53
chickens, or the chickens surrounded by snow or some other

00:42:57
animals.

00:42:57
It's really cute.

00:42:58
Yes, his dog.

00:43:01
Speaker 2: We visited him a couple times there in Maine.

00:43:04
Speaker 1: Well, celia, it's been great chatting with you.

00:43:06
I could chat with you for a long time because I love cooking

00:43:08
and food and cookbooks.

00:43:10
So the next time I'm up in San Francisco I will pop in and say

00:43:13
hi to you and Paula.

00:43:14
Please do, please do.

00:43:16
And for anyone listening who might want to order the books

00:43:20
we've spoken about today, how do they go about that?

00:43:23
What is your website?

00:43:25
Speaker 2: Omnibore we've spoken about today.

00:43:26
How did they go about that?

00:43:26
What is your website?

00:43:27
Omniborbookscom.

00:43:27
And then we, since the pandemic , we've gotten all of our

00:43:30
cookbooks up there.

00:43:31
I used to just have the antiquarian ones and ones that

00:43:33
were hard to find, because I thought I thought well, if

00:43:36
people want a regular copy and they're not getting my curated

00:43:40
special store, they'll just buy it from Amazon or something.

00:43:42
And I was totally wrong.

00:43:43
During the pandemic, I realized so many people from all over

00:43:47
the country really want to support independent shops, which

00:43:50
is wonderful.

00:43:50
So now we have everything on there, new and vintage, and a

00:43:54
lot of signed books, because we have so many authors come and

00:43:58
speak.

00:43:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have an amazing events program there.

00:44:02
Celia, thank you for being here .

00:44:04
I had a lot of fun.

00:44:06
Speaker 2: Thank you, it was such a pleasure chatting with

00:44:08
you.

00:44:08
I can't wait to meet you in person.

00:44:10
Speaker 1: You've been listening to my conversation with Celia

00:44:13
Sack, founder and owner of Omnivore Books San Francisco.

00:44:18
To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to

00:44:21
thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a

00:44:26
review wherever you listen to the show.

00:44:28
You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram

00:44:33
and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop Podcast.

00:44:37
If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to

00:44:40
suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via

00:44:44
the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom.

00:44:47
The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, mandy

00:44:51
Jackson-Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly,

00:44:55
executive assistant to Mandy, adrian Ohtohan and graphic

00:44:59
design by Frances Farala.

00:45:01
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.