Hi, and welcome to The Bookshop Podcast!
In this episode, I chat with Joyce Carol Oates about the 2024 republication of her novel Broke Heart Blues by Akashic Books. We explore how nostalgia and adolescent pressures shape her storytelling, with John Reddy Hart at the centerâa character in Broke Heart Blues who encapsulates the dual nature of high school fame and the journey from family protector to solitary adult. Joyce lends her unique perspective, rooted in her rural upbringing and experience navigating more affluent circles, to reflect on how external perceptions often clash with self-view.
Venture into the enigmatic isolations of celebrity life with insights into iconic figures like Marilyn Monroe and Elvis Presley. Joyce shares her reflections on how these stars were often imprisoned by their fame, becoming reflections of their public personas. We also discuss the intricacies of adapting Joyce's novel Blonde into a film, the interconnected worlds of friendship, fashion, the arts, and her friendship with Gloria Vanderbilt.
I ask Joyce about teaching, an anchor amidst the creative whirlwind that emerges as a profound pillar of her life. She explains how teaching balances the uncertainties of writing with the gratifying structure of education. This episode celebrates a life committed to the arts, creativity, and the ever-evolving landscape of expression.
Joyce Carol Oates
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Broke Heart Blues
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Broke Heart Blues
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Mandy Jackson-Beverly
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You're listening to Episode 272 .
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Joyce Carol Oates is a recipient of the National Medal of
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Humanities, the National Book Critics Circle, ivan Sandroff
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Lifetime Achievement Award, the National Book Award and the 2019
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Jerusalem Prize, and has been several times nominated for the
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Pulitzer Prize.
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She has written some of the most enduring fiction of our
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time, including the national bestsellers we Were, the
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Mulvaneys Blonde, which was nominated for the National Book
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Award, and the New York Times bestseller the Falls, which won
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the 2005 Prix Femina.
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She is the Roger S Berlin Distinguished Professor of the
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Humanities at Princeton University and has been a member
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of the American Academy of Arts and Letters since 1978.
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It's my pleasure to welcome you to my conversation with Joyce
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Carol Oates.
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Broke Heart Blues was originally published in 1999 by
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Dutton Books.
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Why did Akashic Books republish the book in 2024?
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Speaker 2: It's a sort of surprise to me.
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It wasn't my idea, to you know, to reprint it.
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It was a publisher and they did some letters of mine also which
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were not my idea.
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It's as if these things are just happening.
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But the cover is so interesting and for me to read the novel
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after 25 years was also a strange experience.
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Yes, I bet it was Well.
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In rereading the novel I was really struck by how special a
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world that was where we could be .
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We could be adolescents at that time in a way that we can't now
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, I think, with the internet, of course, and school shootings
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and so much that's different.
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There was never even a glimmer of an idea of a school shooting
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when I went to high school, or in this novel.
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Yeah, we're in a very sad place Right, and of course the
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community in my novel is a suburb of Buffalo, so it wasn't
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really like a small town but what we call like an affluent
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suburb, you know, and I think that allowed for a certain
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bubble, like a prosperity and affluence which the citizens of
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a place like that have.
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As a student I was bused in from the country.
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I didn't live in Williamsville, I lived in a place called
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Millersport which was just out in the country and we were on a
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small farm, so several people in that area, students and I,
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would get on the school bus and we'd be driven about 15 miles or
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so.
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It was quite a distance to Williamsville, so I came in from
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the outside and so writing about the novel I'm sort of
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looking at it from the periphery , which I think is where most
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writers and artists dwell is kind of at the edge of things.
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Speaker 1: It's a beautiful place to be.
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Yes, while reading Broke Heart Blues, I couldn't help but think
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about the pressures placed on young people.
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The way everyone perceives John Reddy Hart is similar to that
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of a celebrity.
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Speaker 2: Well, when I wrote the novel I was writing about
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nostalgia, that very, very powerful, bittersweet but
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somewhat indefinable emotion that we feel thinking about the
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past, remembering in some cases when we were teenagers and we
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were much younger and we didn't have adult worries and
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responsibilities.
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So I wanted to write a novel about American nostalgia for
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high school and John Reddy Hart is.
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Probably every high school has someone a little bit like him or
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it could be a girl who are charismatic and attractive, but
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something happens to them.
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Who are charismatic and attractive but something happens
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to them.
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They disappear or they die or just something sets them apart.
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So John Reddy Hart was my character and then I develop him
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from the perspective of people looking at him.
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But then in the second section of the novel we see what he's
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really like and he's such a different person.
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He's such a kind of ordinary nice person who's done good
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things for other people but not for himself.
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John Reddy Hart, he's like his heart.
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He sort of gives his heart, he defends his family, defends his
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sister Charlene.
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He's like his heart.
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He sort of gives his heart, he defends his family, defends his
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sister Charlene, he defends his mother.
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He sort of gives up his life for that family, taking the
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blame for a murder he didn't himself actually do, but he
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takes the blame kind of silently and then he goes on with his
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life.
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And then when he's an adult he's going to be 39 years old in
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the novel he doesn't have his own family, he doesn't have a
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really permanent life, he's he's Mr Fix-It.
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He fixes it for people.
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But then the third part of the novel, we're back with the high
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school memories again, and now the students, the teenagers, are
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all grown up, coming back for the 30th reunion and they still
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have these naive, adolescent ideas about John Hart.
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They have no idea how sad his life is, how diminished his life
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is.
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Speaker 1: So I think I'm always interested in the irony of how
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people perceive us and how we perceive ourselves, and that is
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probably strongest in the second part of the book, where we see
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John Reddy Hart as this Mr Fix-It.
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He's living in a small town, he's reckoning with himself and
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perhaps wondering when everything is going to go to
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hell in a handbasket, because that's how he perceives himself,
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almost as not worthy.
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And in the last part of the book.
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What I found fascinating was that you left the fate of John
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Reddy Hart up to the reader.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, it's so touching.
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I was thinking of my own father too.
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My father, frederick Oates, was a handyman like Mr Fix-It.
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He was sort of Mr Fix-It he could paint, he could do
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carpentry, even some simple electrical wiring he could do.
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I don't say that his life was sad, but it was a very
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restrained life.
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He had to quit school when he was only in eighth grade and he
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had to go to work.
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So he's sort of like John Hart.
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He gave up so much of his life for his family.
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My grandmother, my father's mother, had been abandoned by
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her husband at a time when it wasn't really easy for women to
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get employment.
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Women couldn't have careers.
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Really About all women might do is teach, and the teacher's
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salaries were very low.
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So my father was sort of like John Hart.
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When I wrote about him and described him I was sort of
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thinking of my own father who ultimately, his life wasn't that
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sad.
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When he retired from working in a factory he went back to
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school.
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He took, you know, adult education courses at Buffalo.
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So I remember thinking of looking at photographs of him
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and thinking it's just kind of a sad life, you know, when you're
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so relatively poor and the options are so small and sadly
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that's true for so many people living in rural America.
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Speaker 1: Are there any other characters in Brokart Blues who
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you've painted with traits or characteristics from other
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members of your family?
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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think anybody else in the family is
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based on anyone.
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Dahlia Howard is nothing like my mother.
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I wrote a whole novel based on my mother called Missing man.
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I have that book right here.
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Oh, that's my valentine to my dear mother.
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My mother was extremely modest, but both my parents and my
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grandmother also were really very nice, uncomplaining people
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of another era.
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I think that they would be so shocked by today.
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You know it was a time when politicians didn't say such
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awful things.
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Politicians tended to be very idealistic, maybe hypocritical,
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but you know they gave speeches that were all about unifying in
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America.
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And today, when you hear Trump spewing literal hatred, I find
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it actually still shocking after years.
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You know we can remember when political leaders were
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idealistic.
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I mean George W Bush would never say things like that.
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You know more like a gentleman.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I agree.
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My father-in-law was a California Republican state
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senator and while I'm far to the left, he was not like a
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Republican of today.
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We'd have great conversations and he would educate me and I'd
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educate him about environmental issues especially.
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And when he passed away, at his funeral, there must have been
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nearly 800 people there, including Willie Brown from San
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Francisco, duke Majan, jerry Brown, pete Wilson.
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You know from both sides it was like a bipartisan funeral and I
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think he would just be so sad to see what's happening now.
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He would be shocked.
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Where was his district Back then?
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It was from LAX all the way down to Long Beach and Catalina.
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But you know, it changes all the time.
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The districts change constantly .
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It's strange because, when I think of it, he died in 2009.
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And if I think about how much the Republican Party has changed
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since then, and drastically over the last eight years, it's
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almost unbelievable.
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It is not the Republican Party that it was, that's for sure.
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Speaker 2: I know it sounded as if you're married into a very
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nice family.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I am, and I really loved my father-in-law.
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He was a wonderful man.
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Yes, I am, and I really loved my father-in-law.
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He was a wonderful man.
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Okay, let's get back to your books Now.
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You have a remarkable catalog of writing, from plays to operas
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, novels and essays.
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I was wondering if you sense a personal inner theme that
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resonates throughout your work.
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I have my own thoughts about this, but I would love to hear
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your thoughts.
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Speaker 2: Well, I think I often write about people who are
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either male or female and it could be adolescents too, who
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feel very lonely and very alone and they're sort of observing
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life and they feel kind of on the outside.
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I think that I'm still writing about from that perspective.
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It's kind of a tonal feeling and I have an ongoing interest
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in the visual world.
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I like to describe places.
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I like to describe landscape, trees and fields and creeks.
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There's always a river or a canal going through my writing.
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So when writing about John Reddy Hart when he's living
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alone in this somewhat small town in Western New York, I've
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kind of put myself in that perspective.
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And even writing about Marilyn Monroe from her perspective, she
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became extreme.
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Norma Jean Baker became extremely isolated in her own
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celebrity where people looked at her but saw only Marilyn Monroe
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and didn't really care about her.
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It was more appropriating the glamour of Marilyn Monroe for
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themselves.
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And she did have love affairs and she married three times.
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The marriages all seem to be to Marilyn Monroe rather than the
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actual person.
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Speaker 1: Your words reminded me of kind of what we were
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talking about earlier about the absurdity of American celebrity,
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but I like what you said that it's not about Marilyn, it's
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about her being reflected back onto them.
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That's given me a lot to think about.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and when you're put on a pedestal, when you're
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like the object, you can feel very lonely because people sort
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of isolate you and they don't really want to think that you're
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just like them or normal, because they just want to, they
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want to idolize or objectify someone, but then they but they
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also turn on people like that too really quickly.
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Well, albus presley had a similar experience because he
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was kind of calcified and cocooned inside his celebrity.
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He's very, but probably just, sort of an ordinary guy who
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would like to be friends with his friends from teenage years
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and go out and have a pizza, you know, hang out with his friends
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.
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But once you become a celebrity like Presley, you literally
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can't go out anymore because it's a swamp with people.
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And the same thing is true, say , with Bob Dylan or anyone who's
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a celebrity they can't go out anymore, they're sort of hiding
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away, and if we look at someone like Elvis Presley and his
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children and their children, I can't help but think of
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inherited suffering.
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It's very interesting.
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I was once out to dinner with a friend in Los Angeles and he
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was a friend of Al Pacino.
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So we had dinner with Al Pacino and then we were walking across
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the hotel lobby and I saw this flash onto Al Pacino.
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They stared at him and some of them just came walking right
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toward him.
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It was like moths.
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He didn't look at them, he never made eye contact.
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He kind of quickly went in an elevator.
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But one man came forward with his son.
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He said Mr Pacino, can I have your autograph?
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Very aggressively he says for my son.
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And he kind of pushed his son and I thought, oh my God, that's
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what Al Pacino has to live with .
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He can't go out in public.
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But Al Pacino handled it very graciously.
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He signed this piece of paper.
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He never made eye contact, he got in the elevator and we all
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disappeared.
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But I really had a whiff of the feeling of what that would be
00:16:08
like.
00:16:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen it a few times when I worked as a
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costume designer and stylist in LA.
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When the door closed and it was just me alone with a celebrity,
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some of them would be like they revert to their childhood.
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They're just kind of giggly and funny.
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I remember thinking it was strangely charming.
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Others you can just see they're a bit drained, others just kind
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of laugh it off or shrug it off .
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It is fascinating.
00:16:34
And if I brought this back to John Reddy Hart in Broke Heart
00:16:37
Blues, it's a character who's never really allowed to be a
00:16:42
child.
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He's looking after his siblings , he's looking after his mother.
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He's looking after his mother and he took the blame for
00:16:48
something that he didn't do to protect those he loved.
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John Reddy Hart never really got to experience being a child.
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Speaker 2: Yes, that's true.
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How were you working with celebrities?
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Speaker 1: I worked as a stylist and costume designer in Los
00:17:03
Angeles, mainly for music people the music industry, commercials
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sometimes tours, so I was very lucky I got to work with David
00:17:16
Bowie, madonna, tina Turner, george Michael I mean a whole
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lot of different people and someone like Diane Keaton, the
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Coen brothers, david Fincher.
00:17:25
It was a remarkable time in my life.
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I learned a lot about human behavior.
00:17:32
Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful.
00:17:33
Yes, love the Coen brothers movies and I did meet Diane
00:17:38
Keaton.
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I met her with Larry Grobel and with Al Pacino.
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Speaker 1: Yes, when you mentioned Al Pacino, I figured
00:17:46
you must have met Diane Keaton.
00:17:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was even more down to earth than just a
00:17:51
plain nice person.
00:17:54
Yes and she's smart.
00:17:55
Diane Keaton didn't really seem to have that glamour or
00:17:59
celebrity.
00:17:59
She seemed much more like just a person.
00:18:03
Speaker 1: I think she's a celebrity who has held onto her
00:18:05
autonomy while being a person.
00:18:06
I think she's a celebrity who has held on to her autonomy
00:18:08
while being a celebrity.
00:18:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I met her she was really talking about
00:18:12
her children.
00:18:13
She adopted a couple of children.
00:18:14
That seemed to be really the emotional focus of her life, not
00:18:19
her career, but she just really was like a family person.
00:18:23
Speaker 1: And highly creative too.
00:18:24
You spoke about Marilyn Monroe earlier, and I would love to
00:18:28
hear about the adaptation of your book Blonde to film and
00:18:32
co-writing with director Andrew Dominick.
00:18:35
Speaker 2: Well, andrew Dominick contacted me quite a long time
00:18:38
ago, I'm guessing maybe around 2000.
00:18:41
He had that project in mind for a long time.
00:18:45
He needed to get financing.
00:18:47
So he sent me the screenplay that he had adapted from the
00:18:52
novel and I thought it was excellent.
00:18:53
It's just the narrow band of the novel.
00:18:57
It doesn't take in the whole novel, naturally.
00:19:01
I mean that's the way it should be.
00:19:02
But he did it very well and I talked to him on the phone maybe
00:19:06
twice or three times.
00:19:09
We have never met.
00:19:11
I've seen his movies.
00:19:12
The assassination of Jesse James, I think, is really
00:19:17
excellent, an early stage before the final version, and we
00:19:28
talked a little bit about it.
00:19:29
But I don't think he necessarily got any advice from
00:19:30
me.
00:19:30
You know, I found it very tense to watch.
00:19:34
I have never seen it all the way through.
00:19:36
I usually have to stop and then come back to it.
00:19:40
So I've seen it maybe three times but I could never sit down
00:19:44
and watch it with friends.
00:19:45
It's too painful and maybe it's Ana de Armas' acting is so
00:19:52
powerful.
00:19:52
It was like too real, you know, too real.
00:19:56
Speaker 1: Yes, she is extraordinary in that role.
00:19:58
But I want to share with you.
00:20:00
I felt the same way.
00:20:01
I thought the film was absolutely beautiful, but I
00:20:05
started to get so angry about the misogyny and the way she was
00:20:08
treated.
00:20:09
I had to stop watching it for a while and, yeah, take a
00:20:14
breather, because, like you, it made me angry, and maybe that's
00:20:19
just because there's so much of that in our country right now.
00:20:22
It was kind of reflecting back to Trump for me and it's
00:20:28
heartbreaking.
00:20:29
Women, I mean, we have been fighting for decades, centuries,
00:20:33
to be worthy.
00:20:34
That in itself is heartbreaking .
00:20:37
Yes, yes, yeah.
00:20:39
Marilyn Monroe was an incredible woman, not only
00:20:43
because of her beauty.
00:20:43
In fact, I find her more beautiful when I see photos of
00:20:46
her without any makeup.
00:20:48
Her hair is just like a normal person's hair.
00:20:51
It's not in a big do.
00:20:52
Sometimes you can see a little sliver of herself coming through
00:20:57
.
00:20:57
Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a lot of people who talk
00:21:00
about her.
00:21:00
I mean, when I did the research , I did know someone who had met
00:21:04
her.
00:21:04
It's completely what you'd think.
00:21:07
You know, norva Jean Baker was so different from Marilyn Monroe
00:21:11
and Marilyn Monroe, with her breathy voice and her mannerisms
00:21:15
and her platinum blonde hair and makeup, that was just surely
00:21:21
a performance and Norva Jean Baker liked to wear when she was
00:21:26
in New York going to the actor's studio.
00:21:29
She'd just wear blue jeans and a pullover sweater.
00:21:32
They have any makeup on, you know.
00:21:34
She would wear dark glasses, she wore a man's fedora hat and
00:21:38
she could go on the subway, she could go in taxis and I think
00:21:42
she went in bookstores and she was sort of just like a real
00:21:45
person.
00:21:46
But she could certainly be glamorized.
00:21:49
I mean, she would have makeup and hair.
00:21:53
I think like three or four hours to get her so perfect.
00:21:58
Speaker 1: You know, hearing you say that reminds me of
00:22:00
something I used to tell my students in the art room or in a
00:22:03
writing workshop.
00:22:04
I used to tell my students in the art room or in a writing
00:22:08
workshop and that is when you have difficulty expressing
00:22:09
yourself or, you know, if you wanted to call it writer's block
00:22:11
, or for some reason, you just are unable to put a brush to a
00:22:15
piece of canvas.
00:22:16
I always suggest to my students that they think about an actor
00:22:22
and how they step into character .
00:22:24
They have their hair and their makeup done, Then they have all
00:22:27
these costumes put on and they're around props and the art
00:22:31
direction that suits the period and the time that they are in.
00:22:35
Now, if we were to look at that through a creative standpoint,
00:22:38
before you sit down to write, before you stand in front of
00:22:42
that canvas, before you start dance practice or before you
00:22:46
start writing a piece of music, put on something that alerts
00:22:51
your soul that you are now going into creative mode, that you're
00:22:56
stepping into costume.
00:22:58
For instance, I have this old black cashmere robe that was
00:23:03
given to me by a friend and I've had it for 25 years or
00:23:07
something and it's covered in holes from where my cats have
00:23:10
been, you know, making biscuits on it and it's just got holes
00:23:14
everywhere.
00:23:14
But I find that when I want to write a story not something that
00:23:20
I write daily, but write a story then I put on this robe
00:23:26
and that has become my costume.
00:23:28
It is my writing costume.
00:23:30
It alerts my whole being that this is what I'm doing now.
00:23:34
I'm not doing anything else.
00:23:36
I find it just helps me to step into that character of my
00:23:40
creative self.
00:23:41
What are your thoughts on this?
00:23:43
Speaker 2: You know, that's a really interesting idea because
00:23:45
you're in costume design and you see things from a theatrical
00:23:48
performance point of view that you don't have to be inspired or
00:23:54
happy to go out and perform as if you're happy.
00:23:57
So if you're a teacher, if you're any kind of a public
00:24:01
person with responsibility, a doctor, a therapist, you put on
00:24:06
your casual robe or your hat or your special glasses, you kind
00:24:13
of go out and perform that role and you feel so much better.
00:24:17
And I have a very good friend who is a theater director and
00:24:22
she understands the performative nature.
00:24:25
I remember we were talking together.
00:24:30
She was so upset by the debate with Trump and Biden where Biden
00:24:33
just wasn't prepped for it, I guess, and she was saying you
00:24:38
know, he needed a director, he needed somebody in the theater
00:24:42
to tell him to look up, engage with the audience, speak clearly
00:24:46
.
00:24:46
It was like he had forgotten that he was performing, whereas
00:24:53
Trump, of course, is always sort of performing and pretending.
00:24:55
Life often is performative.
00:24:59
So why not choose your costume?
00:25:03
I was also good friends with Gloria Vanderbilt.
00:25:06
Gloria said that fashion is the respect you pay for other
00:25:12
people when you wear your nice things for them, and I thought
00:25:16
that's such a beautiful description.
00:25:20
She always dressed up, whether she was going to her son's
00:25:24
school for PTA.
00:25:25
Anderson Cooper said his mother would show up in a fur coat and
00:25:30
purple something or other and everybody was stunned by her but
00:25:35
also charmed, because Gloria was very, she really loved
00:25:39
people and I thought that was so beautiful.
00:25:42
I never heard that before.
00:25:44
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that saying that you're not just
00:25:47
dressing up for yourself, you're dressing up to show your
00:25:49
respect for others.
00:25:50
That is beautiful.
00:25:52
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, and I often just wear my old clothes
00:25:55
around the house, but when I go out, when I teach, I try to do
00:26:00
something a little nicer.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: While we're speaking about clothes, there are a
00:26:06
couple of jackets that you wear that are divine, and you have
00:26:10
them in a couple of different colors.
00:26:11
I wanted to ask you about them because you must feel fantastic
00:26:16
in them, because you look like you are confident when you're
00:26:19
wearing them.
00:26:19
They're both Issey Miyake.
00:26:21
Ah, no wonder they caught my eye, yeah.
00:26:26
Speaker 2: I have about 20 Issey Miyake outfits jackets and long
00:26:31
skirts and so many tops.
00:26:34
Whenever I'm in public, I am wearing Issey Miyake.
00:26:37
I take a travel on.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: Well, his work is that of a creative.
00:26:43
I mean, what a talented designer.
00:26:45
Absolutely stunning work.
00:26:48
Speaker 2: Gloria gave me those Issey Miyake outfits.
00:26:50
He was her favorite designer and she bought me them.
00:26:56
They weren't cast off.
00:26:57
She actually bought me so many outfits from Issey Miyake.
00:27:01
It was embarrassing.
00:27:03
I would give her a signed book or something which seems like a
00:27:07
small gesture compared to these wonderful outfits.
00:27:10
Some of them I haven't worn in a long time.
00:27:15
Speaker 1: Your friendship with Gloria Vanderbilt must have been
00:27:17
a very special friendship.
00:27:20
Speaker 2: Yes, gloria was very supportive of writers, women
00:27:25
writers and women actors, and mostly a younger group of women
00:27:31
she befriended.
00:27:32
She had lunches and dinners at her apartment in New York.
00:27:36
She introduced women to one another, so there was a little
00:27:39
group of like glorious, glorious girls.
00:27:44
Speaker 1: I would love to have met her.
00:27:45
Okay, I'm going to go back to writing for a while.
00:27:47
What initially drew you to experiment as a screenwriter and
00:27:51
playwright, and how was this experience?
00:27:54
Speaker 2: Well, both of those were only because I was invited
00:27:57
by somebody.
00:27:57
I was invited by Martin Scorsese and some other
00:28:02
directors, some other people, to do screenplays, to try to write
00:28:07
screenplays.
00:28:08
None of my screenplays were ever actually made into films,
00:28:14
so I don't remember how Scorsese must have contacted my agent.
00:28:18
Of course he must have contacted my agent.
00:28:20
And then, with writing plays, I was approached by the I think
00:28:29
it's New Plays of Lexington New Play Program and I accepted
00:28:34
their commission.
00:28:35
So I wrote several one-act plays that were put on together.
00:28:37
Then I went on later to write full-length plays, but not so
00:28:42
many, but always because of theater or it could be like a
00:28:45
non-profit organization contacted me.
00:28:49
I was not a natural playwright, I didn't start out at all as a
00:28:53
playwright and I'm not writing plays now.
00:28:56
I would probably write a play if somebody asked me again, but
00:29:00
in theater right now there's a lot of focus on persons of color
00:29:05
and kind of woke issues and for an older white woman would not
00:29:12
really be anyone that they would commission now.
00:29:15
Speaker 1: I enjoyed your play American Appetite.
00:29:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, American.
00:29:19
Speaker 1: Appetites?
00:29:20
Yes, it was wonderful.
00:29:21
Was that Appetites?
00:29:21
Yes, it was wonderful.
00:29:22
Was that LA Theatre Works?
00:29:24
Yes, it was, and off the top of my head, I think it was Keith
00:29:28
Carradine, anna Gunn, gordon Hunt directed it.
00:29:33
Speaker 2: It was an organization that did a lot of
00:29:35
my radio plays, yeah, but not for a while.
00:29:39
I don't know what happened.
00:29:41
Sometimes some organization just um disappears.
00:29:51
When you've been around as long as I have, you can settle back
00:29:52
for your life.
00:29:52
There were direct women directors, and male directors
00:29:54
too that I worked with a lot, you know, year after year, and
00:29:58
then they drop out or they disappear and suddenly it's 10
00:30:04
years later and you wonder whatever happened to.
00:30:06
But they're still there, just that they may be doing other
00:30:11
things.
00:30:11
The American theater entered the kind of crisis, I think,
00:30:17
because there was a backlash against white playwrights, like
00:30:23
white male playwrights and white female playwrights to some
00:30:25
extent.
00:30:26
So it's much harder now and many people have just given up,
00:30:31
but it's still fine to be writing novels or poetry.
00:30:36
It's just that the theater represents a different kind of
00:30:38
community.
00:30:40
Speaker 1: Yes, and unfortunately, with the pandemic
00:30:43
theater sure took a beating, absolutely.
00:30:47
Let's talk about teaching, because throughout your life
00:30:50
it's definitely been a staple.
00:30:52
I would love to know what you enjoy most about teaching.
00:30:56
Speaker 2: Well, when I first was thinking about my life, I
00:30:59
thought I would be a teacher.
00:31:00
Probably when I was in middle school already, and certainly
00:31:04
high school, I anticipated that I would have a career as a
00:31:07
teacher.
00:31:07
Now I didn't really think or think much about being a writer
00:31:13
and I've never been a writer.
00:31:14
It was like a freelance writer.
00:31:16
I've always had a job.
00:31:17
I've always been attached to an institution.
00:31:20
My first job was at the University of Detroit, then I
00:31:24
was at the University of Windsor , then I came to Princeton and
00:31:28
now I still teach at Princeton one course.
00:31:31
But I also teach at NYU and I've taught at Berkeley and
00:31:35
Rutgers.
00:31:36
So teaching has been a constant in my life.
00:31:39
It's more like the social side of my life and writing is very
00:31:44
solitary.
00:31:44
It's kind of groping and uncertain.
00:31:48
Lots of frustration.
00:31:50
When I teach on Mondays and Tuesdays I have a real idea of
00:31:56
what is going to happen and I prepare for it and I teach the
00:32:02
classes and there's a real sense of satisfaction.
00:32:05
I read the student work, I get all ready for it, but with my
00:32:09
own writing I don't really know whether tomorrow will be a
00:32:13
frustrating day, a disastrous day, a day I get nothing done,
00:32:17
or whether I actually get something done.
00:32:19
It's pretty much uncertain.
00:32:22
So we have the certainty of teaching and I also like my
00:32:26
students a lot and I like my colleagues, so that's like a
00:32:30
certain thing.
00:32:30
But then the writing is really uncertain.
00:32:33
Speaker 1: I like what you said about keeping things separate,
00:32:37
and we're almost back to that putting on a costume idea again.
00:32:40
You know, you dress up to go and teach and the minute you
00:32:44
come home you put your ratty old clothes on because, let's face
00:32:47
it, the minute you sit down you will be covered in cat hair,
00:32:52
something I heard you say.
00:32:53
I can't remember which interview it was, but you said
00:32:57
these words writers need the uplift of completing a story.
00:33:02
Can you expand on that idea?
00:33:05
Speaker 2: Yes, working on a novel can be a long, long
00:33:07
journey and it's really uncertain and you can have very
00:33:12
depressing days or even weeks.
00:33:14
But if you work on a short story you will probably finish
00:33:19
it and then there's this feeling of satisfaction, as I said,
00:33:22
uplift.
00:33:23
Then if it's published and you see it in print, that's another
00:33:27
level of achievement, whereas with the novel people can get
00:33:31
stuck on novels literally for years.
00:33:34
So it's nice to be doing something like you might write a
00:33:39
few chapters of a novel, then take a little break and work on
00:33:42
some short fiction or poetry or reviews.
00:33:48
And sometimes I've done little memoir pieces, my memoir.
00:33:52
I have two memoir books and one of them is really just memoirs
00:33:58
to essays that were invited by editors for me to write.
00:34:01
In other words, I didn't set out to write a memoir about
00:34:03
myself, it was one I put in together Essays about my mother
00:34:08
and my father and my school, something that happened in high
00:34:13
school.
00:34:13
So that's good too, to kind of take invitations from editors
00:34:19
and then you write something that ultimately you can put into
00:34:22
a book.
00:34:23
Speaker 1: And here's another quote of yours, which is just
00:34:26
beautiful.
00:34:27
Art is the highest expression of the human spirit.
00:34:32
Speaker 2: Yes, all different kinds of arts.
00:34:34
Sometimes when I hear music, I think, well, that's the highest
00:34:37
expression.
00:34:38
Sometimes I read poetry, and last night, with some friends, I
00:34:42
saw such a wonderful movie I'd seen before.
00:34:44
It's the conformist by berloucci.
00:34:47
That is a remarkable, remarkable movie, and he made it
00:34:51
when he was 31.
00:34:52
There there's no way that you can describe the movie, because
00:34:56
it's all these visual scenes, one after another.
00:35:00
It's literally like a feast for the eyes.
00:35:04
It's about really a terrible person and a terrible time in
00:35:10
Italian history of fascism, but it's the most beautiful movie.
00:35:13
And so cinema is also this very high art and they are the
00:35:20
highest expressions of the human spirit definitely, absolutely.
00:35:25
Speaker 1: Let's talk about books.
00:35:25
What are you currently reading?
00:35:27
Speaker 2: Oh, let's see.
00:35:28
Well, I'm reading a lot of my student work.
00:35:30
I have a lot of student work.
00:35:32
Then I have a writer friend who's sending me her novel.
00:35:36
She's writing it, she's published.
00:35:38
I mean, she's not a student writer.
00:35:42
So I'm reading her novel, which I just read the first couple
00:35:45
pages of and I'll be getting to sometime soon.
00:36:06
I read a lot of new books, so I tend to read new books.
00:36:10
I also reread.
00:36:13
Speaker 1: Oh, I love to hear that you're a rereader, because
00:36:15
I am too, and I'm always surprised when people say they
00:36:18
don't reread books.
00:36:19
Every time I pick up a book, I love it is like a gift that I'm
00:36:25
given over and over again, and I always find something new
00:36:29
between the pages.
00:36:30
It's wonderful.
00:36:32
Speaker 2: Well, I also I'm teaching my students, so I
00:36:35
assign classic work, so I'm always rereading Like I reread.
00:36:40
We all read the Turn of the Screw a couple weeks ago.
00:36:43
Then their assignment was to write ghost stories really good
00:36:48
original ghost stories.
00:36:49
And then next week we're reading Ray Carver and David
00:36:52
Foster Wallace.
00:36:53
So I'm always reading along with my students.
00:36:56
Speaker 1: Yes, I can imagine them keeping you very busy.
00:36:58
There's one last question I would love to ask you about,
00:37:01
Because you mentioned Bob Dylan earlier.
00:37:03
I'd love your thoughts on songwriters who tell stories
00:37:07
within their work, such as Bob Dylan's song Hurricane from his
00:37:11
album Desire in 1976.
00:37:13
And this thought came to me because in Brokeheart Blues,
00:37:18
kind of at the top of each chapter, you have parts of a
00:37:22
song that's apparently written about John Reddy Hart.
00:37:26
Speaker 2: Yes, the made up song yes.
00:37:29
Speaker 1: So regarding the song for the Broke Heart Blues,
00:37:32
which you wrote, my question would be what came first the
00:37:36
song, the characters, locations, the plot?
00:37:39
The song, the characters, locations, the plot.
00:37:41
And also I would just like your thoughts on some of these
00:37:45
incredible songs we've had written specifically with Bob
00:37:48
Dylan, maybe someone like Robbie Robertson when he wrote the
00:37:52
Night they Drove Old Dixie Down, which was fictional, whereas
00:37:55
Bob Dylan's Hurricane is actually nonfiction.
00:37:59
Speaker 2: Well, we could probably talk for a long time
00:38:00
just about Bob Dylan.
00:38:02
Speaker 1: Yes, he is a remarkable writer.
00:38:05
Speaker 2: He is a storyteller.
00:38:07
He is really an American original.
00:38:09
There's so many aspects of Dylan.
00:38:12
It's like he's about 12 people put together and so funny to
00:38:17
think of him being Bob Zimmerman from.
00:38:20
Is it Minnesota?
00:38:22
Yes, duluth, minnesota.
00:38:25
Like he lived in Minnesota.
00:38:26
He had a high school rock band.
00:38:29
Evidently it was just one of these loud teenage rock and roll
00:38:34
bands.
00:38:35
You know that you think well, they're never going to get
00:38:37
anywhere Like, oh, this is so awful, you know.
00:38:42
And then he sort of dropped that and got really interested, of
00:38:45
course.
00:38:45
But then he so he lost interest in rock and roll but he saw
00:38:50
that folk music was the new wave of the future and he sort of
00:38:54
latched onto that and started writing these wonderful songs.
00:38:58
It's like he was a genius that flourished proper sunshine and
00:39:06
water and nourishment, he just bloomed.
00:39:08
And I guess he left Minnesota and came to New York.
00:39:11
He was around the coffee shop scene and he started there with
00:39:17
these folk songs and then he just built up this career and
00:39:21
got better and better.
00:39:22
Then he sort of threw that away and decided that he would go
00:39:26
different kind of music, with amplifying the music and writing
00:39:31
a different kind of not folk music anymore.
00:39:34
But he still told stories and he still does now, so the
00:39:38
storytelling is really part of his whole career.
00:39:42
Speaker 1: His work is like a precious gift to this country.
00:39:44
Songs keep us captive.
00:39:46
Speaker 2: It's amazing Johnny Cash did that too Sort of
00:39:50
dramatic monologues like I Killed a man in Reno.
00:39:54
Speaker 1: Dolly Parton kind of does the same thing.
00:39:56
She's done that throughout her career, telling wonderful
00:40:00
stories within her catalog of songs.
00:40:03
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and some people thought that when Johnny
00:40:07
Cash said he killed a man in Reno, that he actually did that,
00:40:09
you know, like with a sort of mixture With Bob Dylan probably
00:40:14
people were more sophisticated and able to see this was like a
00:40:18
voice, not his voice.
00:40:20
Speaker 1: Well, joyce, we have gone from Brokeheart Blues to
00:40:24
Marilyn Monroe, johnny Cash and Bob Dylan.
00:40:26
That's pretty good in one conversation.
00:40:29
Yeah, I think I started with about I don't know 90 questions
00:40:34
and I had to just narrow them all down.
00:40:36
But I thank you so much for being on the show and for
00:40:40
allowing me the privilege of chatting with you.
00:40:42
Speaker 2: That's fine, I wanted to just say that I had a lovely
00:40:45
week or so in Australia before COVID.
00:40:50
Speaker 1: How were you in Australia?
00:40:52
Speaker 2: Well, I went to the Melbourne Book Fair with my
00:40:55
husband he also had a book at that time, so we both gave
00:40:58
little appearances.
00:40:58
Then we traveled around a little, we had a guide and that
00:41:00
time so we both were had little, you know, gave little
00:41:01
appearances.
00:41:01
Then we traveled around and a little we had a guide and
00:41:05
somebody was driving.
00:41:06
I loved it and the people.
00:41:09
People are so nice in australia .
00:41:11
We were so, so impressed.
00:41:13
And also the, the aboriginal art well, here we are.
00:41:18
Speaker 1: We've been talking about stories and storytelling,
00:41:21
and that that is exactly what Aboriginal art is about
00:41:25
storytelling.
00:41:26
Speaker 2: So interesting.
00:41:27
Speaker 1: I recommend looking up books about the Dreamtime.
00:41:30
It is fascinating.
00:41:32
Speaker 2: The Aboriginal storytellers who are artists.
00:41:36
It's really a private language because when you look at it, you
00:41:40
don't see anything like that.
00:41:41
You just see these geometrical forms.
00:41:45
Speaker 1: You know it's strange .
00:41:46
I've never thought of Aboriginal art as geometric
00:41:50
forms.
00:41:50
Maybe it's because I grew up with that kind of art and the
00:41:55
stories behind their art.
00:41:57
Joyce, thank you so much for being here and it's been a
00:42:01
pleasure chatting with you.
00:42:02
It's so nice to meet you.
00:42:04
Bye-bye, You've been listening to my conversation with Joyce
00:42:08
Carol Oates.
00:42:09
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00:42:49
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00:42:54
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00:42:57
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00:43:01
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00:43:03
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