In this episode, I chat with Edward Humes about his latest book, Total Garbage: How We Can Fix Our Waste and Heal Our World. Humes reveals the surprising depths of waste permeation in everyday life and the power we hold to rectify these issues. By reimagining waste as an opportunity rather than an obstacle, Humes provides a blueprint for collective action toward a cleaner, more responsible future.
EDWARD HUMES is a Pulitzer Prizeâwinning journalist and author whose sixteen previous books include Garbology: Our Dirty Love Affair With Trash, The Forever Witness, Mississippi Mud, and the PEN Awardâ winning No Matter How Loud I Shout. Ed and his family, including their rescued racing greyhounds and collie, live in Southern California.
Edward Humes
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Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
00:00:14
bibliophile.
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You're listening to episode 247 .
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Edward Humes is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and
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author whose 16 previous books include Garbology, our Dirty
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Love Affair with Trash, the Forever Witness, mississippi Mud
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and the Penn Award-winning no Matter how Loud I Shout.
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Ed and his family, including their rescued racing greyhounds
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and collie, live in Southern California.
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His latest book is titled Total Garbage how we Can Fix Our
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Waste and Heal Our World.
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Hi, edward, and welcome to the show.
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It's great to have you here.
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Speaker 2: Oh, it's great to be here, Mandy.
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Thank you.
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Speaker 1: As you can tell by all of the sticky notes I have
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on nearly every page of your new book Total Garbage how we Can
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Fix Our Waste and Heal Our world .
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I loved your new book.
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I think it's fantastic.
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Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: Okay, let's begin with learning about you and your
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life as a journalist, winning a Pulitzer Prize for journalism
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and your interest in human stories.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that was so I started.
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I guess I started my writing career as a child.
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I was always writing stories and I never imagined it would be
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a livelihood.
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But then I got into newspaper reporting while I was still in
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college.
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I was working part-time for a local newspaper near my campus
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and I got the bug.
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I changed my course of study from a potential degree in
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marine biology to literature and journalism, and it turns out I
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prefer writing about things like that more than I do, you know,
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actually digging into the research of uh art that
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scientists have to devote their lives to.
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I get to move from one fascinating story and one
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fascinating character to another , and I have.
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I love it.
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Who could imagine you could have a job like that?
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And for uh, the subjects always revolve around characters who
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can be our access point into important stories.
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So I've written about juvenile court and wrongful convictions,
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but I've also tackled a number of environmental stories about
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efforts to make us less damaging to the planet, more sustainable
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, and where the crossroads between doing things that are
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good for us and doing things that are good for the planet
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actually meet.
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And that's really the heart of Total.
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Speaker 1: Garbage.
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In essence, it sounds like your stories are character-driven.
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Speaker 2: Yes, Sometimes it starts with something I'm
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interested in and then I find the character who becomes my
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guide, you know, and then the reader's guide.
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But sometimes it's the other way around, that I read about
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someone who's just fascinating.
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That happened with a book I wrote called Mississippi Mud.
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I read a story in the newspaper about a young nurse whose
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parents were murdered and she undertook the investigation of
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that crime, that terrible crime that changed her life.
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When the police didn't seem to be going anywhere with it and I
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just called her out of the blue.
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We had never met, never spoke.
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I found her number, I called her up, we ended up on the phone
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for three hours that night and then the next day I was booking
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a flight to North Carolina to, you know, immerse in this
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person's amazing story and life.
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And I'm in this town where people got away with murder
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until she came along.
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And sometimes it just happens that way and you find, you know,
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having that nerve to call somebody out of the blue and
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getting them to open up over time changes your own life as
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well as providing an amazing story to tell.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the courage to make that first call
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can be life-changing for everyone.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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Speaker 1: In your new book Total Garbage, you discuss waste
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and the fact that, while it's everywhere, waste is a local
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problem, starting in our homes.
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What did you discover during your research as the key
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takeaway for the theme of Total Garbage?
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Speaker 2: Well, one takeaway is that waste isn't just what we
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roll to the curb each week and put out in the trash.
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That's just the part we see most clearly, although even
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there we're usually not aware just how trashy we all are much
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more than we think.
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But waste is so deeply embedded in our daily lives and our
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products and everything we do that we really don't see it
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anymore.
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Most of what we pay on our utility bills is waste not
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things that are lighting our house or warming our house and
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our cars are terrible.
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They waste.
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Four out of five dollars you spend at the pump goes to waste
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and only that one dollar actually moves the car.
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It's the nature of the beast.
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Our food waste is off the charts almost 40 percent of our
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food, and it's not just the food .
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Then you waste all the water, all the energy, all the
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chemicals, all the labor, all the effort and transportation to
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produce that food.
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It, it's all waste.
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And so I guess, if it boils down just about the takeaway,
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what we use is sure and important, but it's what we
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waste that's killing us.
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It's driving all these other environmental crises and the key
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is, if we start talking about them as waste, it changes the
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conversation.
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People who might be resistant or feel helpless in the face of
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climate change or plastic pollution.
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If you frame it as just a manifestation of waste, well, we
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all get.
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First of all, that's bad.
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Waste is a cost and a loss.
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But also, as you said, waste starts locally.
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It's also a systematic problem.
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But we all feel, like correctly , that waste is the one thing we
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can do something about and I think if we frame the
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conversation that way it can save the world.
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Speaker 1: Yes, we need to become conscious consumers and
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to get out of that instant gratification mindset.
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And you give a great example of conscious buying in your book,
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and that is related to purchasing peanut butter plastic
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or glass containers or going to a store and using your own
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container for freshly ground peanut butter.
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Speaker 2: Well, the glass jars are a great point because it's a
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perfect container, because it has no chemicals to leach into
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our food, which plastic containers can and do.
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It's got the ability to be cleaned, it's durable.
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And you know my friend, Anne-Marie Minow, who I write
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about in the book the Zero Waste Chef, also an author of a
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wonderful book that's how she stores her food.
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You know pickle jars, peanut butter jars why throw them away?
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Why go buy, you know, and spend money on containers when you're
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getting this as kind of a free bonus with your peanut butter or
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whatever?
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And they make great containers.
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You can freeze them, you can chill them, you can do anything
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with them and then wash them and use them again.
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So there's that economy for yourself, a healthier container
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than plastic, and also it's beneficial for the environment.
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All rolled in one, the triple wins are all over the place and
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they're easy to do.
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Speaker 1: I like to reuse glass jars for vegetables because
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when I open the refrigerator it's easy to see what I have
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available.
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Let's talk about invisible pollution.
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What is it and where do we find it in our homes?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that really gets back to this idea that the
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waste is embedded in you know our lives so deeply that we
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think it's normal.
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But historically we live in a very abnormally wasteful
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civilization the most wasteful in history and we've just been
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kind of marketed and, through generations of habit, gotten
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used to this incredible cost that we're imposing on ourselves
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.
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And it is invisible, and seeing it clearly was one of my
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missions in writing this book, because you have to really look
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at it and suddenly the switch flips and you say, oh my god,
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this is, this is crazy packaging and and wraps, plastic wraps
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that we think maybe gets recycled if we put them in the
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recycling bin.
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They never get recycled.
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They, they are not recyclable and yet we seem to think that
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it's it's normal to take this substance, this plastic the
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first mass-produced synthetic substance and a miracle for for
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durable products, I mean.
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We need plastics in our modern life, the ones that last, that
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we build things with.
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I have no problem with the responsible use.
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The key about plastic is it doesn't break down.
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You know, bacteria don't cause it to break down into natural
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elements that then can be absorbed into nature the way
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natural substances are.
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That's why, you know, our planet is ticking along really
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beautifully, and so you know.
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So we started adding all kinds of things to the environment
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that didn't belong there, plastic being one of them.
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Why would you take this substance that lasts for
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thousands of years and make a disposable product out of it
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that nature can't absorb?
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It's madness, and yet we think it's normal.
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The people who designed and invented plastic never
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envisioned a disposable economy growing out of it, because they
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were trying to build things that last with this substance.
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That was malleable.
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And you could oh you could make piano keys that aren't made
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from elephant ivory and billiard balls and things like that were
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some of the early uses of plastic, and it truly was
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miraculous.
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It saved money, it saved nature and it accomplished.
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It truly was miraculous.
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It saved money, it saved nature and it accomplished a lot of
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great things, but we've turned it on its head and made it a
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bane of our existence, so much.
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This is how abnormal it is that invisible waste uh is
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everywhere.
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It's in our food, it's in our air and now it's in our bodies.
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It's being found in newborn babies' poop.
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Before they even had their first suckle at the breast or the
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bottle.
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There's plastic in them, it's in our veins, in the plaque
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that's lining our arteries, and we are engaged in a really crazy
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lab experiment where we're the rats to see what's going to
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happen if we keep loading our diet up with tiny plastic fibers
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.
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I think that's horrifying.
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One study shows that we are consuming the equivalent of a
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plastic credit card's worth of plastic every week, and if we
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don't do something about it, it's going to be two credit
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cards in the near future.
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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a terrifying and sobering thought.
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Speaker 2: It's unacceptable and we can't.
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We don't have to keep doing that.
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We don't need disposable plastics.
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If you must buy a single use container, buy something in
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glass.
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You know, get your beer in a can, whatever it is that you
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have in a throwaway container.
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There are options other than plastic that will keep the
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plastic chemicals from getting into your body, will keep the
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plastic out of the environment and, in the case of a glass
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container, will give you something you could use for
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other purposes if you wish.
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Aluminum infinitely recyclable In fact.
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If you make sure your aluminum can get into the recycling
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stream, using that aluminum to make something new, we'll use 1%
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of the energy of freshly mined aluminum 1%.
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The environmental impact is so radically better for that
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material, not so with plastic.
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We only do 9% of our plastics get recycled.
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It's pitiful.
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Speaker 1: Yes, it is pitiful.
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Perhaps it gets down to educating every community across
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the country.
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As an example, in the book you suggest that when you have
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pieces of aluminum foil, that you wait until you have quite a
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bit enough to make like a baseball size, put it all
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together and then put it in the recycle bin.
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It's a simple idea, but it's not one that I have been doing.
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Not that I use that much aluminum foil, but still I
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didn't know about that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, there's no instruction manual.
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The aluminum foil if you just put it in in small pieces, it
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gets caught in the recycling machinery and doesn't get
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recycled.
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It just creates a problem.
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But if you boil it up into something the size of a baseball
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or bigger, then no problem.
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You have to rinse the food off of it too, though, which is a
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bit of a step.
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Contamination is what stops most recycling, and food on
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stuff is the contaminants and it's a little hard.
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Speaker 1: but not that hard.
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No, it's not difficult.
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And if you're concerned about using water to clean off the
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aluminum foil, which you should be, recycle your used water from
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something else you've used, maybe washing dishes, or keep a
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bucket of shower water handy.
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Let's move on to Australian comedian Jimmy Reese and his
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skits on the Guy who Decides Packaging.
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He is a funny guy.
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Speaker 2: He is hilarious.
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Speaker 1: Yes, he is.
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So while the skits are funny, the message is loud and clear.
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Packaging is overkill.
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Most packaging is marked non-recyclable or recyclable
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with the adage quote, but only in certain areas.
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Even organic fruit and veggies are often wrapped in plastic.
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While we can grow our food and shop at farmers markets, we
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still need daily staples, for example rice and lentils, etc.
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Which are sold with non-recyclable packaging.
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What did you learn about this topic while strolling around
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supermarkets with trash genius Jenna Jambach?
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I'm guessing going to supermarkets with Jenna was a
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pretty interesting field trip.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's the one that turned me on to
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Jimmy Reese too.
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I watched his YouTube and I was just sitting there laughing at
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the screen.
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Well, he and Jenna Janbeck come at the same problem from
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different directions.
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I mean, he's poking fun at the ridiculous and unnecessary
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variety of packaging to sell the same thing over and over again,
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so that basically, what you're selling is the packaging and the
00:14:30
contents that are irrelevant because they're all the same
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price.
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There's only a few basic types that you find in the supermarket
00:14:36
, but yet there's dozens of different packages for the same
00:14:39
thing and he pokes fun of it.
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Jenna jambeck, uh, who is a trash genius because she
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literally won the macarthur genius award for being the
00:14:49
scientist who first quantified how much plastic pollution is
00:14:52
going into our oceans and and rivers.
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It was much more than was imagined and it's and it's
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continuing to go up.
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She does work with communities around the world, really from
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the Philippines to I believe she has done some work in Australia
00:15:08
, all over the US, helping them deal with this problem that she
00:15:13
quantified the plastic pollution , because every location has a
00:15:16
different source and different strategies you can use to keep
00:15:21
plastic from getting into our water and our soil and our
00:15:24
environment.
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One of the things she does is survey supermarkets, which in
00:15:29
many communities is the starting point for things that become
00:15:33
plastic pollution.
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And she took me along with what she was doing in the town of
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Tifton, georgia, and she warned me, going in, that some people
00:15:42
kind of cry when they do this with me or they say I can never
00:15:46
go shopping and not feel bad about it again.
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And so I'm just warning you and I said, sure, jennifer, I'm a
00:15:52
hard journalist, I can do it, don't worry.
00:15:55
But you know, we were walking down the rice aisle and she
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challenged me to find the most sustainable packaging and the
00:16:04
healthiest product on that aisle and I couldn't really do it
00:16:11
because it's impossible, because the information on the
00:16:14
packaging is so poor, because the healthiest stuff tends to
00:16:19
come in unrecyclable plastic pouches that are made of
00:16:22
different kinds of plastics, which is immediately a
00:16:25
non-starter, can't recycle that, everything has to be by itself.
00:16:30
But of course they don't make it that way because no packaging
00:16:33
and plastics manufacturers are really thinking about the end of
00:16:36
life of their products.
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They just want somebody to buy it and then, hey, somebody
00:16:40
else's problem, which is of course the problem.
00:16:43
The most sustainable packaging, a plain cardboard box had the
00:16:47
least healthy material in it, the really highly processed,
00:16:50
salty-flavored, chemically heavy rice products the instant kind
00:16:55
of stuff and that came in the most recyclable container but it
00:16:59
was the least healthy choice to buy to eat.
00:17:01
So I ended up sort of taking the Jimmy Reese route in my book
00:17:05
and making a little fun of that .
00:17:07
But it's not funny, it's tragic .
00:17:10
And Jenna is a real eco-warrior in trying to counter that, both
00:17:16
helping at the community level but also advocating for broader
00:17:20
policies that shift the way we are packaging and the materials
00:17:27
that we're using to a more sustainable direction.
00:17:30
And he points out that the burden of this plastic waste and
00:17:34
dealing with it falls heaviest on the poorest communities
00:17:38
because think of the shopping options for people on a very low
00:17:42
income they tend not to have access to all the shopping
00:17:46
options and in some communities the dollar stores may be the
00:17:52
best choice available because everything's really cheap there.
00:17:55
But if you look at how you buy things, from dish detergent to
00:18:00
potato chips to any other kind of food, it's all packaging the
00:18:04
tiniest amount of actual contents in it, because it's
00:18:09
really cheap to do that and cheap to buy.
00:18:12
That way short term.
00:18:13
In the long term you're spending much more money for
00:18:16
much less, and that's the packaging trap that we're in,
00:18:22
and communities with the least resources to deal with the
00:18:25
pollution and the litter and the plastics and the recycling
00:18:28
burden that comes out of that are getting stuck with the
00:18:32
biggest mess to clean up.
00:18:33
So it's a vicious cycle that we have to figure out a way to
00:18:38
overturn.
00:18:39
Speaker 1: Yes, we do, but listening to you speak reminds
00:18:42
me of the phrase vote with your wallet.
00:18:44
Speaker 2: That works.
00:18:45
Speaker 1: Yes, it does.
00:18:46
Right now, it's critical that we consider every item we
00:18:51
purchase, and I think this is a perfect segue into my next
00:18:55
question, because on page 48, you write about the Keep America
00:18:59
Beautiful campaign, specifically the crying Indian
00:19:02
commercial that debuted on Earth Day campaign, specifically the
00:19:05
Crying Indian commercial that debuted on Earth Day, April 22,
00:19:08
1971.
00:19:10
What went on behind the camera leads to a larger conversation
00:19:16
about the truths behind the commercial Keep America
00:19:18
Beautiful.
00:19:18
Speaker 2: Who are they?
00:19:19
Well, for those of you who are not familiar with the Crying
00:19:21
Indian commercial, to this day people look at it on YouTube and
00:19:24
find it one of the most powerful environmental call to
00:19:27
arms in history, and it's very evocative.
00:19:31
So what's depicted is someone who is supposed to be a Native
00:19:35
American in traditional indigenous garb.
00:19:40
Neither of those things is actually true, but OK, you know
00:19:43
actors and tv.
00:19:44
Uh, let's, let's put that aside for for now.
00:19:47
The message is man in a traditional canoe paddling down
00:19:53
a river in a beautiful natural setting.
00:19:55
And then suddenly he's paddling down a pollution choked river
00:20:00
filled with litter and debris, and he pulls up on a beach
00:20:04
equally trashy.
00:20:05
As the music swells, there's a close-up of his face and there's
00:20:11
a tear, one single tear, running down his cheek.
00:20:14
Thus it became the chronic Indian ad.
00:20:17
And then the narration and the message is people start
00:20:21
pollution.
00:20:21
People can stop it.
00:20:22
There was an anti-litter message and it spawned, with the
00:20:27
help of Keep America Beautiful, the creators of this ad, an
00:20:31
entire movement against litter to do beach cleanups and park
00:20:37
cleanups, to get volunteers and scout troops and schools to
00:20:41
participate in this and to convince everybody that it was
00:20:45
our fault.
00:20:46
All this stuff, all this mess, the disposable packaging and
00:20:50
containers everywhere was the fault of the consumer, which is
00:20:55
not true, because the fault is with the beverage and packaging
00:20:59
companies who, you know, in the years leading up to that ad
00:21:04
switched from a model that went back to America's colonial days
00:21:10
and the first glassworks, in which beverage and food sellers
00:21:15
took responsibility for their packaging.
00:21:17
They wanted it back so they could reuse it, and even in the
00:21:22
1700s we're charging small deposits to customers so they
00:21:27
would get their containers back.
00:21:28
That was the business model, and it's pure capitalism.
00:21:31
Oh, we get to keep our profits, but we also have to pay our
00:21:35
costs for dealing with our packaging.
00:21:37
That's our responsibility, that's our business model, and
00:21:40
that persisted for centuries.
00:21:41
That's how things worked.
00:21:42
And then the invention of the first plastic bottle, made out
00:21:48
of the same stuff polyester clothes are made out of, but it
00:21:51
was the first time they were able to put a carbonated
00:21:53
beverage into a plastic bottle that didn't explode.
00:21:57
Speaker 1: It contained the pressure.
00:21:58
Speaker 2: That was the key.
00:21:59
It was a tough problem and somebody looked it in the lab
00:22:03
and suddenly the beverage companies Coca-Cola leading the
00:22:07
charge said hmm, here's a way we can not have to take our
00:22:11
packaging back and just kind of say, here, take it, it's very
00:22:15
convenient, you don't have to bring it back to us Like that
00:22:17
was a good thing.
00:22:19
But the problem is that's what super supercharged litter?
00:22:23
Because nobody knew what to do with these things and they ended
00:22:26
up everywhere.
00:22:27
There was no recycling infrastructure for them.
00:22:29
The companies weren't interested in doing that, so
00:22:32
they built this impossible product that we have nothing to
00:22:35
do with after it's used up, except throw it away somewhere
00:22:37
after it's used up, except throw it away somewhere.
00:22:38
And it became the taxpayers' and consumers' responsibility to
00:22:47
create a recycling infrastructure and to deal with
00:22:48
this material.
00:22:49
That always in the past was the cost borne by manufacturers and
00:22:51
bottlers and merchants.
00:22:53
And the crying Indian was part of the campaign to beat back the
00:22:59
literally thousands of laws that were proposed from the
00:23:03
federal government to local communities, to states, to
00:23:05
return to a system where containers and bottles and such
00:23:10
were brought back to the manufacturers everything from
00:23:13
milk bottles to beer bottles, to soda bottles.
00:23:14
And this was part of a lobbying campaign to defeat those laws.
00:23:19
And it succeeded because this message that it's our fault
00:23:23
really got traction.
00:23:24
People bought it and it was propaganda, it was greenwashing,
00:23:29
and the Keep American Beautiful campaign was financed by the
00:23:32
very same beverage and container makers who were opposing these
00:23:36
laws.
00:23:37
That was its true intent.
00:23:38
Who were opposing these laws.
00:23:41
That was its true intent and it was the most successful ad
00:23:42
campaign in history, with the goal of sticking us with waste
00:23:45
under the guise of keeping America beautiful.
00:23:47
And it's only now that we're starting to say wake up and say,
00:23:51
wait a minute.
00:23:52
We've been subsidizing waste that we shouldn't be responsible
00:23:56
for and one of the storylines in Total Garbage is what's
00:24:00
happening to finally say, hey, that crying Indian was no Indian
00:24:04
, it was an actor whose stage name was Iron Eyes Cody.
00:24:08
It was cultural appropriation.
00:24:11
Finally, keep America Beautiful has given up the rights to
00:24:15
those images and that message and returned it to.
00:24:19
I believe it's the National Congress of American Indians, an
00:24:23
organization that now has custody of that ad and has
00:24:26
retired it.
00:24:27
But it's really confused us and persuaded us that this
00:24:34
unrecyclable packaging was okay and normal, if only we tried to
00:24:38
recycle better.
00:24:39
And the problem is that material is not designed to be
00:24:42
recycled.
00:24:42
It never was, still isn't.
00:24:44
Speaker 1: And, as you point out in the book, none of the litter
00:24:47
in the Crying Indian commercial has any names whatsoever on any
00:24:52
packaging.
00:24:53
Speaker 2: It was curated.
00:24:54
Speaker 1: Yes, and I can just imagine how hard the art
00:24:57
department worked, you know, turning all of those bits of
00:25:00
litter over.
00:25:01
So there were no company names on any of the trash, and I can
00:25:05
tell you from experience what goes on behind the scenes is way
00:25:09
more interesting than any commercial, you'll see.
00:25:12
Speaker 2: There's nothing authentic in any aspect of that
00:25:15
commercial that was so effective .
00:25:17
Speaker 1: Yes, it worked.
00:25:18
It sucked everybody in.
00:25:19
After reading your chapter about chef Christopher Galaza, I
00:25:24
couldn't help but think of the similarities between the
00:25:26
documentary who Killed the Electric Car and induction
00:25:30
stoves displayed at the 1933 Chicago World's Fair.
00:25:34
Every fellow cook I've spoken with who owns an electric
00:25:37
kitchen, specifically an induction stove, says they're
00:25:39
fantastic and that the change from gas to electricity was easy
00:25:39
.
00:25:39
Fellow cook I've spoken with who owns an electric kitchen,
00:25:40
specifically an induction stove, says they're fantastic and that
00:25:42
the change from gas to electricity was easy and they've
00:25:45
saved a lot of money on their gas bill.
00:25:48
On page 84, you quote a congressman as saying if the
00:25:52
maniacs from the White House come from my gas stove, they can
00:25:55
pry it out of my cold, dead hands.
00:25:58
Another quote is God guns gas stoves.
00:26:02
Oh my goodness, from where does this fear of going from gas to
00:26:07
electricity derive?
00:26:09
Speaker 2: Yes, that's how crazy things have gotten.
00:26:12
You know, people are creatures of habit and we have been
00:26:18
convinced again over generations that cooking with gas well,
00:26:23
it's even a mean, now you're cooking with gas, things are
00:26:26
going great.
00:26:28
Another successful ad campaign.
00:26:30
It's becoming better than our psyches.
00:26:32
But again, this is the kind of thing where you have to really
00:26:36
open your eyes and see things with fresh eyes.
00:26:39
Eyes because think about what you're doing with your gas stove
00:26:42
.
00:26:42
You are setting fire to fossil fuels in the heart of your home,
00:26:47
in the middle of your home, without ventilation.
00:26:48
Even if you have those range hoods, most of us don't turn
00:26:51
them on, and if you do, most of them just blow the air back into
00:26:55
the house and they're ineffective anyway.
00:26:57
You know it's like running your car in the house, except the
00:27:01
very real pollution coming out of your stove isn't as obvious.
00:27:03
There is a 42% increased risk of childhood asthma and other
00:27:09
respiratory ailments in homes with gas stoves.
00:27:12
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness.
00:27:14
Speaker 2: I have a son who grew up with childhood asthma.
00:27:16
I did not know that then.
00:27:17
He's an adult, he's healthy, he's fine now, but he would get
00:27:21
these attacks and we would never know what triggered it.
00:27:24
We thought it was allergies.
00:27:26
We ripped all the carpets out of our house.
00:27:27
We did everything.
00:27:28
I would have ripped that gas stove out in a heartbeat if I
00:27:31
had known what the industry knew back then, when my son was
00:27:35
little and didn't tell us If for no other reason, if you don't
00:27:38
care about the environment, if you don't care about saving
00:27:42
money because it's much cheaper to have an induction stove than
00:27:45
a gas stove that you take fire hazards out of your house.
00:27:49
The kitchen is the number one source of home fires in america.
00:27:52
That all goes away with an induction stove because the
00:27:55
stove doesn't actually get hot.
00:27:57
It's a miracle the way you can cook with this device.
00:28:00
If none of that appeals to you, keeping your kids healthy
00:28:04
should Keeping vulnerable adults with respiratory issues in your
00:28:07
home.
00:28:07
It's expensive.
00:28:09
Not everybody can afford to do it in their own homes If they
00:28:11
live in an apartment if they're renting they can't do it.
00:28:17
You know what you can do very inexpensively is get a little
00:28:18
countertop induction cooker, one or two burners.
00:28:21
You can get them for well under a hundred bucks.
00:28:23
There's several really great product review websites that can
00:28:26
point you to the very best value in this.
00:28:28
Between that and a little toaster oven or a slow cooker,
00:28:33
you can do most of your cooking and save your gas stove for the
00:28:36
big feasts.
00:28:37
But otherwise keep it shut off.
00:28:40
You'll all be healthier.
00:28:41
And when you do use it, open the windows, shut your kids'
00:28:45
doors so the indoor pollution stays out of their rooms and do
00:28:49
what you got to do.
00:28:50
But you are better off if you don't use natural gas, which
00:28:54
itself is like a greenwashing term.
00:28:56
Yeah, sure, the gas that you cook with comes from a source in
00:29:01
nature sort of volcanoes, you know so you don't want them in
00:29:04
your home.
00:29:04
Natural gas is not a good thing to have in your home.
00:29:08
It constantly leaks methane into the environment.
00:29:11
Our gas infrastructure is very old in most of our cities and it
00:29:15
leaks constantly, and it is 88 times more potent a greenhouse
00:29:20
gas than carbon emissions.
00:29:21
It's terrible for the environment, it's terrible to
00:29:24
breathe in, it's trouble having your home and the blue flames
00:29:28
that we're all infatuated with.
00:29:29
They don't cook anything, it's just a light show.
00:29:31
It's invisible infrared radiation, otherwise known as
00:29:34
heat, that does the cooking.
00:29:36
And that heat is the same for any source, whether it's a fire,
00:29:40
whether it's gas or whether it's electric.
00:29:43
Speaker 1: It's just heat, it's all the same, it's another
00:29:46
invisible pollutant, as we were talking about earlier Invisible
00:29:50
waste.
00:29:51
Speaker 2: Gas stoves are like our energy system in general.
00:29:54
Two-thirds of the energy a gas stove consumes by burning the
00:29:58
gas is wasted, because think of how hot a stove gets, how hot it
00:30:04
makes the room.
00:30:04
That's all energy that's going out into your indoor environment
00:30:08
without cooking the food, so only a certain percentage of it
00:30:11
actually cooks the food.
00:30:12
With an induction stove, over 90% of the energy is directed
00:30:17
into the pot or the pan where your food is, so it's so much
00:30:20
more efficient.
00:30:21
You use less energy.
00:30:23
Speaker 1: Instapots are great for that too.
00:30:25
I mean, they're so fast.
00:30:27
Speaker 2: They are, they are.
00:30:29
Speaker 1: One thing I want to mention about your book is that,
00:30:32
even though we talk about all this, you know awful stuff very
00:30:36
depressing environmental concerns.
00:30:38
Your book is about stories stories of everyday intelligent
00:30:44
people doing outstanding work in the recycling industry, such as
00:30:48
Ryan Metzer and his son Owen, and BlockPower founder Donald
00:30:52
Baird.
00:30:52
Here in California we have strict building codes and
00:30:56
permitting takes months and months.
00:30:58
How do we get up to par with countries like Australia
00:31:02
regarding streamlining the permitting and inspection
00:31:05
process and using green building materials?
00:31:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, australia has really been excellent in getting
00:31:11
ramping up rooftop solar and making it a very easy process.
00:31:15
Yeah, I mean that's.
00:31:17
The building codes here are local in nature often and
00:31:21
there's a web of laws and it's complex and it changes slowly
00:31:26
and that really needs to be a higher priority.
00:31:28
There's so many simple things that we know how to do that
00:31:32
would save us money and save energy.
00:31:34
Requiring real insulation of our homes and our windows to
00:31:39
keep the heat and the cool in would make a huge difference.
00:31:44
There's a type of construction I write about in the book called
00:31:47
passive homes, where basically you have homes that are sealable
00:31:52
and have a ventilation system and a filtration system to bring
00:31:57
in fresh air.
00:31:58
You can open it up when the weather's nice, but otherwise
00:32:01
you can seal it.
00:32:02
Why is that important?
00:32:03
Particularly in places like California, but really all over
00:32:06
the country, now that wildfires are becoming more common, and
00:32:11
for air quality.
00:32:12
These homes stay cool or stay warm and keep fresh air in the
00:32:19
house even under those conditions of wildfire smoke in
00:32:23
the air and they save money because you don't need to expend
00:32:28
a lot of energy to keep them cool or keep them warm when you
00:32:32
need it.
00:32:32
To it only adds a relatively small amount to the construction
00:32:37
cost maybe five to 10% for a home and larger scale buildings
00:32:40
like apartment buildings, it's negligible.
00:32:44
We can build this way in Europe.
00:32:46
They're doing it all the time.
00:32:47
And if you add solar energy to that sort of home construction
00:32:53
and they don't look futuristic, they look like regular homes.
00:32:55
They're just built better With better materials.
00:32:57
There's a couple in Maine who have a passive house for their
00:33:01
family with solar panels.
00:33:03
They pay nothing for energy.
00:33:05
I mean just the connection fee $13 a month for electricity.
00:33:09
Maine is going crazy over heat pumps, which is a type of heat
00:33:15
and cooling that doesn't actually burn anything or
00:33:20
consume much energy, and it's saving them huge amounts of
00:33:24
money.
00:33:25
Because many people up there have oil burnery furnaces and
00:33:29
they're spending $600 a month to keep their houses warm during
00:33:33
very cold winters, and that goes down to next to nothing with a
00:33:37
heat pump.
00:33:37
It's a no brainer to make these kinds of changes in how we
00:33:42
build and just getting that permit process streamlined.
00:33:45
Unfortunately, it's also the bottleneck for large-scale solar
00:33:50
energy projects.
00:33:51
In America there's billions and billions of solar energy and
00:33:55
wind products backlogged because of the slowness of permitting
00:34:01
products.
00:34:01
Backlogged because of the slowness of permitting and
00:34:03
because of our grid and things that connect these resources to
00:34:05
the places that need the power that the sun and wind can
00:34:07
provide us is so old.
00:34:08
Some parts of our grid date back to the Kennedy
00:34:11
administration.
00:34:12
It's crazy.
00:34:13
So there's a regulatory bottleneck with that too.
00:34:18
That needs to be overcome and streamlined.
00:34:20
There's a regulatory bottleneck with that too.
00:34:21
That needs to be overcome and streamlined.
00:34:22
And that's again the invisible waste we don't really see or
00:34:24
understand.
00:34:25
That's the waste that's killing us.
00:34:35
Speaker 1: From invisible waste we're going to move on to waste
00:34:36
that is visible and in our face 24-7.
00:34:37
For many years I was involved in the fashion industry.
00:34:39
I adore the creative aspect of fashion, specifically vintage
00:34:45
fashion.
00:34:45
I'm excited to see what young designers are doing with Trashin
00:34:50
Fashion, making it fashionable to bring vintage used clothing
00:34:55
to runways around the world.
00:34:57
And this leads me to a story I've been following for a couple
00:35:01
of years about a landfill pile of clothing at El Paseo de la
00:35:05
Mula in Chile.
00:35:06
Did you get a chance to read the article I sent you, ed?
00:35:10
Speaker 2: I did.
00:35:10
It's horrifying.
00:35:11
Speaker 1: Yes, it definitely is .
00:35:13
The article I'm referring to is titled A Mountain of Used
00:35:18
Clothes Appeared in Chile's Desert, then it Went Up in
00:35:21
Flames, and that article was in Wired, published January 13th
00:35:25
2024.
00:35:26
And I'll make sure to put links to everything we've talked
00:35:29
about on the show today in the show notes.
00:35:32
I'm hoping that the more people who read these articles about
00:35:36
discarded clothing will reconsider every piece of
00:35:39
clothing they purchase, because we need to start thinking about
00:35:43
where clothing goes to dye.
00:35:45
Most clothing is made with some sort of synthetic and if it's a
00:35:50
natural fabric, chances are it has a synthetic zipper or
00:35:54
synthetic buttons attached.
00:35:56
Synthetic fabrics and materials do not compost.
00:35:59
Discarded clothing gets exported to countries such as
00:36:03
Kenya, chile, india and Ghana.
00:36:06
So let's talk about clothing, designers, fashion and trash and
00:36:11
fashion.
00:36:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, of course , this is the manifestation of
00:36:15
the fast fashion which is literally a waste by design.
00:36:18
It's this clothes that the manufacturers know are going to
00:36:22
end up in the landfill, that are going to wear out quickly, that
00:36:26
they over manufacture, so that as much as a third of a line of
00:36:32
fast fashion shirts or whatever ends up getting thrown away
00:36:36
without even going to market.
00:36:37
It is a crazy way to get people to think about clothes.
00:36:44
And also, one thing many people don't understand is that one of
00:36:48
the major markets for recycled plastic bottles you know when
00:36:53
they do get recycled is the clothing industry, and those
00:36:57
soda bottles turn into polyester .
00:36:59
It's a one-way trip.
00:37:00
So, yeah, you can get recycled once, but then it never gets
00:37:04
recycled once it's a piece of plastic clothing, so it's phony
00:37:08
recycling.
00:37:08
It's still going to end up in the environment and those
00:37:11
clothes shed fibers of plastic in the washing machine, into the
00:37:17
environment, into our water.
00:37:19
That's one of the main sources of plastic pollution, in
00:37:23
addition to our packaging.
00:37:25
And there's only one country in the world that requires washing
00:37:29
machine makers to put filters on their washing machines, which
00:37:33
is a potential fix for this problem, and that's France.
00:37:36
Nobody else has the vision or courage to tell the industry to
00:37:41
stop doing this.
00:37:43
Speaker 1: Not only is that insane, but it sounds archaic
00:37:46
yeah.
00:37:46
Speaker 2: I know it's crazy.
00:37:47
You know it's funny because we're talking about all this
00:37:50
depressing stuff and actually the main focus of my book is on
00:37:54
solving these things and I don't want people to feel hopeless
00:37:57
because there's so much we can do.
00:37:59
And let's talk about that in the fashion industry.
00:38:01
Did you know that the largest growth sector in the apparel
00:38:07
industry right now, worldwide and in America, is used clothing
00:38:11
, the reuse economy, thrifting.
00:38:13
That is a very positive thing and a joyous thing.
00:38:17
There's thrifting clubs now and young people are really into it
00:38:20
.
00:38:20
It's a multi-billion dollar industry.
00:38:23
Now, In 2022, over half of American consumers bought some
00:38:28
article of used clothing.
00:38:29
It's not like a sort of you skulk into these musty, dusty,
00:38:35
old thrift stores anymore.
00:38:38
It's a whole different experience.
00:38:40
It's great value.
00:38:41
It's great for the environment, both buying that way and
00:38:45
donating that way to organizations like Goodwill that
00:38:49
take your donations and they've upped their game.
00:38:52
Their places look like a Marshall's or a Nordstrom rack
00:38:57
now.
00:38:57
It's not thrifting the way it used to be.
00:39:00
Speaker 1: Yes, it's definitely changed.
00:39:01
This kind of fashion has become hip, clean and eclectic.
00:39:06
I love it.
00:39:07
Speaker 2: Yes, one of the best things you can do for any
00:39:11
consumer good is to buy something used, or I talk about
00:39:16
adding a few R's to our three R's in the book.
00:39:19
Let's repair things, let's reuse in the book.
00:39:20
Let's repair things, let's reuse things and let's rethink things
00:39:24
number one is rethinking how we can avoid wasteful ways with
00:39:29
choices that are actually easy, or save us money, like thrifting
00:39:32
does, uh, or do something better the way induction stoves
00:39:36
do they're just better to cook on.
00:39:38
You can teach your kid to cook on induction stoves because if
00:39:41
he puts his hand on induction burner which isn't a burner,
00:39:44
it's just a magnet.
00:39:45
Nothing happens to him or her.
00:39:47
There's no burn, there's no danger.
00:39:51
It's just a better thing to have in your home.
00:39:54
The other big takeaway in my book is that when you think
00:40:00
about fixing waste and all the environmental problems it causes
00:40:05
, it's almost always not about giving up something you love,
00:40:08
but about upgrading to something you love better.
00:40:10
Whether it's what you drive or what you cook on, or the
00:40:16
containers you purchase and use in your home, the upgrades are
00:40:21
wonderful.
00:40:22
Speaker 1: Yes, that's for sure they are Okay.
00:40:24
Now for the good fun stuff.
00:40:26
Let's talk about green changes that we can all make at home,
00:40:31
and let's start with the bathroom Starting to bother.
00:40:33
Well, let's do it.
00:40:35
Speaker 2: Oh God, there's so many things you can have, of
00:40:37
course, recycled TP.
00:40:39
That's not a big deal, or made out of things like bamboo that
00:40:45
are environmentally more sustainable than wood pulp type
00:40:49
products, which are more common.
00:40:51
That's just one of the obvious things.
00:40:53
But you can have low flow fixtures that reduce water
00:40:58
consumption.
00:40:59
Low flow fixtures that reduce water consumption.
00:41:06
You can get the aerosol cans and plastic bottle products.
00:41:08
Al, I've been trying all kinds of things.
00:41:09
I'm really into toothpaste tablets now.
00:41:12
Speaker 1: They are next on my list.
00:41:13
Now, how are you finding them?
00:41:15
They're great.
00:41:16
Is there a particular brand you favor?
00:41:19
Speaker 2: Well, the one I'm using now.
00:41:20
You know there's many great brands.
00:41:22
I want to do an average size, but the product I'm using now is
00:41:25
called Bite P-I-T-E.
00:41:26
It comes in with fluoride or without, depending on your
00:41:29
preference.
00:41:30
It tastes great.
00:41:30
You just crunch one of these in your mouth and then brush away.
00:41:35
And there's no plastic tube, there's none of the chemicals,
00:41:39
and you know, there and there's no plastic tube, there's none of
00:41:41
the chemicals.
00:41:41
And there's all kinds of weird stuff in most store-bought
00:41:43
toothpaste that you really don't want in your mouth.
00:41:45
I've been trying shampoo and conditioner bars.
00:41:49
Pretty good, go back to bar soap instead of liquid soap.
00:41:55
I mean, come on.
00:41:55
First of all, it's way cheaper, it does the same thing and
00:42:00
there's no plastic waste left.
00:42:02
Speaker 1: Most farmer's markets now have soap that is made
00:42:05
locally, which is fabulous.
00:42:08
Speaker 2: Yes, farmer's market, okay.
00:42:09
And there's a website I want to commend, called litterlesscom,
00:42:21
called litterlesscom, and what it can do for you is help you
00:42:22
locate a zero waste or refill store near you where you can
00:42:23
bring your container and get bulk shampoo, bulk dish
00:42:27
detergent, bulk laundry detergent, take it home in your
00:42:30
own container.
00:42:31
Everything deodorant, uh, if you.
00:42:36
If you love liquid soap, fine.
00:42:38
You want liquid shampoo, fine.
00:42:39
All the waste goes away.
00:42:42
And I write about a, a store in maine called go go refill.
00:42:47
Uh, you know I went all over looking for these stories.
00:42:49
I mean, these stores are everywhere, but you can actually
00:42:52
go in there and get many of these products for less than
00:42:55
they cost at the supermarket by bringing your own container and
00:42:59
buying them in bulk Food co-ops a little out of the bathroom.
00:43:02
But they are also in many communities, bulk where you get.
00:43:16
You know the old-fashioned way, the way you know general stores
00:43:18
used to work in the old days, where there'd be a bin of stuff
00:43:19
and you put a measured amount in your own container.
00:43:22
You know they, they weigh it, you pay for it and you bring it
00:43:26
home and then you bring your container back and it's just,
00:43:30
it's.
00:43:30
It's a kind of commerce and consumption.
00:43:33
That makes more sense and should be the norm instead of
00:43:36
kind of the outlier, because it used to be the norm and we've
00:43:40
gotten away from the what made sense for consumption and for
00:43:45
the environment and for the economy and we now have a system
00:43:48
that only works for the people who create the waste they're
00:43:53
cleaning up because we're paying for that waste.
00:43:56
Everybody else has higher costs than we need to have by buying
00:43:59
things the way we do now and there are other options, and the
00:44:04
more we seek them out and shop at a place like GoGo, refill or
00:44:09
the Zero Waste Store or Refill Store near you, the more they
00:44:13
will grow and the more options like that will be apparent and
00:44:17
other countries are again way ahead of America on this that
00:44:20
it's a much more common way to buy things in other countries,
00:44:24
from wine and beard and milk to you know anything else.
00:44:28
We are the packaging waste kings of the world.
00:44:31
We use more plastic packaging than per capita the world.
00:44:38
Uh, we use more plastic packaging than per capita, not
00:44:39
just, but, but than any other country.
00:44:40
Um, and I, you know americans hate to love to hear that we're
00:44:43
number one, you know, but we're not this is not a good thing to
00:44:45
be.
00:44:46
Number one plastic waste.
00:44:47
And yet we are um, and we can do better, and, and we should do
00:44:51
better, and we can do better and we we'll enjoy it and we'll
00:44:54
enjoy it.
00:44:55
Yes, we'll feel good, you know, and it'll be a real feeling
00:44:59
good, not the fake good of putting plastic in a recycling
00:45:03
bin and then learning later it's not getting recycled, you know
00:45:06
we can actually benefit from all this and save the planet at the
00:45:11
same time.
00:45:12
We can.
00:45:13
Speaker 1: Yes, we can, and I'm going to give a shout out to
00:45:16
composting, because we are big composters in our family.
00:45:20
Our food scraps create incredible soil oh God, it's so
00:45:26
good.
00:45:26
You can see all the worms and it's just fantastic.
00:45:28
And from that we grow incredible produce fruit and veg
00:45:33
and let me tell you there is nothing better than the taste of
00:45:37
homegrown fruit and veggies.
00:45:39
I'm giving a big shout out for growing your food at home.
00:45:44
Speaker 2: Yes, oh, I'm glad you mentioned that.
00:45:46
This is really.
00:45:48
This is the best thing you can do for the environment and for
00:45:51
your health and for your enjoyment, and you don't have to
00:45:53
have a big yard.
00:45:54
It could be a couple of pots on your apartment balcony or in
00:45:57
the windowsill.
00:45:58
Can I tell them about CropSwap LA?
00:46:02
Speaker 1: I would love it if you would do that.
00:46:04
Speaker 2: This former financier , now an urban farmer, named
00:46:07
Jemima Hargens, started this company called CropSwap LA.
00:46:12
It's a nonprofit and what he does is he turns people's lawns
00:46:17
into these beautiful urban micro farms.
00:46:21
He can get out of a thousand square feet of grass, turn that
00:46:27
into a powerhouse farm just a thousand square feet that can
00:46:30
deliver fruits and vegetables fresh to 25 households a week
00:46:36
and use 8% of the water that the grass you know grass is a
00:46:41
totally unproductive crop.
00:46:43
It's, of all the cultivated crops in America, our grass uses
00:46:47
the most water.
00:46:48
It's an insane waste that does nothing for us.
00:46:53
It's an ecological desert.
00:46:54
You notice you?
00:46:55
You know pollinators like bees and all.
00:46:57
It's like flying over the sahara desert to them because
00:46:59
there's nothing in grass for them.
00:47:01
And jemima has shown people how you can turn that into these
00:47:07
aesthetically beautiful solar-powered, water-saving
00:47:12
farms that are delivered food that's not only organic and
00:47:16
regenerative and chemical-free.
00:47:18
It's actually more nutritious than the stuff you buy in the
00:47:21
supermarket.
00:47:21
A supermarket tomato today can have up to 70% less vitamins and
00:47:27
minerals than a traditionally farmed or backyard tomato gives
00:47:33
you.
00:47:33
Speaker 1: And it doesn't you know they taste like they're.
00:47:37
Speaker 2: They're designed not to not to to uh get damaged
00:47:41
during shipping, and they feel that way too, and that's a
00:47:44
that's a convenience for for shippers.
00:47:46
It's not a good thing for uh, for our diets or for our
00:47:50
nourishment or for our enjoyment of food growth.
00:47:53
So, yes, growing your own, your own vegetables, even if it's
00:47:56
one pot, is one of the best things you can do for the
00:47:59
environment and for yourself.
00:48:01
Speaker 1: Before we go, I'd like to talk about the potato.
00:48:03
You can grab one and leave it on your kitchen bench and after
00:48:07
a few days you'll notice what we call chits coming out from the
00:48:11
top.
00:48:11
They're like little rooty things.
00:48:13
Once they've gotten to a certain size, you can put them
00:48:16
in soil anywhere, and about 60 days later you are going to have
00:48:19
a harvest of potatoes.
00:48:21
You pop them in boiling water with a little bit of fresh mint.
00:48:25
Oh, they are delicious, oh yeah .
00:48:28
Speaker 2: There's no comparison .
00:48:29
We've forgotten what food should taste like.
00:48:31
Why mow your yard when you can eat your yard?
00:48:37
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.
00:48:38
Oh, my goodness, If we could just do something about the
00:48:45
gophers.
00:48:45
But I must say I've got a cat that takes pretty good care of
00:48:47
him.
00:48:47
Okay, now I have kept you talking for way too long.
00:48:49
I apologize, but I've just got one last question.
00:48:52
What are you currently reading?
00:48:54
Speaker 2: Oh well, I've got two books going right now.
00:48:56
One is an audio book, it's the Covenant of Water.
00:48:58
I'm a little late to the game there, but Abraham Verghese
00:49:01
reads that so beautifully and I just get lost in this amazing
00:49:05
book.
00:49:06
And then I'm also reading the Teachers by Alexandra Robbins,
00:49:12
and it's a wonderful work of narrative nonfiction about the
00:49:16
lives of teachers today.
00:49:17
And you know, the subtitle is kind of like what the most
00:49:20
important job in America, which it is, but ironically it's not
00:49:24
the best compensated by far job in America.
00:49:27
And these stories are eye-opening and enchanting and
00:49:32
horrifying and for anyone who thinks they know what a
00:49:37
teacher's life is like, read this book and find out what else
00:49:41
is going on.
00:49:42
It's really great.
00:49:43
Speaker 1: I need to read that book.
00:49:44
I mean, I taught for quite a few years and I think I probably
00:49:47
made minimum wage and worked maybe 60, 65 hours a week.
00:49:51
It's grueling work.
00:49:53
I mean I loved it but, gee, it took its toll on me emotionally
00:49:58
and physically.
00:49:59
One last thing I would like to bring up for our listeners, and
00:50:02
that is I appreciate the way you wrote this book.
00:50:06
One of the reasons I read so much fiction and promote so much
00:50:09
fiction is because I believe well-written fiction teaches us
00:50:14
empathy.
00:50:14
It puts us in another character's shoes and point of
00:50:17
view.
00:50:18
We feel what they are feeling.
00:50:21
And the way you wrote your book and probably the way you've
00:50:25
written most of your books is in that style is an element of
00:50:29
fiction, because you're using stories to explain what's going
00:50:34
on.
00:50:35
It's not all in-your-face scientific data.
00:50:39
While it's necessary in certain books, it's a little difficult
00:50:43
to digest, whereas the style of your writing is fantastic.
00:50:48
So I wanted to thank you for writing in the style that you
00:50:52
write in.
00:50:52
Speaker 2: Thank you, maddie.
00:50:53
So I teach narrative nonfiction just one class a week.
00:50:58
Speaker 1: Where are you teaching?
00:50:59
Speaker 2: Right now I'm doing an undergraduate class at
00:51:03
Chapman, but I also have been teaching at summer sessions at
00:51:08
USC.
00:51:08
But I like to tell them that narrative nonfiction is like
00:51:13
journalism with a heart.
00:51:14
It's kind of what you're talking about.
00:51:16
Non-fiction is like journalism with a heart.
00:51:17
It's kind of what you're talking about where you're not
00:51:19
just telling people what happened or what the issue is,
00:51:22
but why they should care, and it has to be the kind of writing
00:51:25
that you were talking about, and it's the bridge between
00:51:30
non-fiction and fiction.
00:51:32
I think that tries to sort of have a little, have a bit of
00:51:36
both, some of the same storytelling that we love in our
00:51:40
novels, but married to a very specific and hopefully important
00:51:45
story that sounds like a fantastic class and, as I said
00:51:49
to you earlier, friends and family members, you will be
00:51:52
getting total garbage for your presence this year.
00:51:56
Total garbage.
00:51:57
You just warn them that the book's not getting total garbage
00:51:59
for your presence this year Total garbage.
00:52:00
Warn them that the book's not really total garbage.
00:52:02
Speaker 1: please, I will.
00:52:03
For sure, ed.
00:52:05
It's been great chatting with you.
00:52:06
I love your book.
00:52:07
Thank you for taking the time out to be on the show and I look
00:52:10
forward to chatting with you about your next book.
00:52:13
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, mandy.
00:52:14
It's been great talking to you.
00:52:15
I love your podcast and what you do, and it's so nice to talk
00:52:21
to someone who's like, really read the book deeply, which
00:52:24
isn't always the case, and I understand why that is, and it's
00:52:28
fine, but it's been a real pleasure.
00:52:31
Speaker 1: You've been listening to my conversation with the
00:52:33
author, edward Humes about his new book Total Garbage how we
00:52:41
can fix our waste and heal our world.
00:52:43
To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to
00:52:45
thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a
00:52:48
review wherever you listen to the show.
00:52:50
You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram
00:52:56
and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop Podcast.
00:53:00
If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to
00:53:03
suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via
00:53:07
the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom.
00:53:09
The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, mandy
00:53:14
Jackson Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly,
00:53:18
executive assistant to Mandy, adrian Otterhan, and graphic
00:53:22
design by Frances Farala.
00:53:23
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.
00:53:26
Thank you.